Libya: Benghazi unrest, to Civil War, to a new government and Gaddafi's death.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I would rather die than live in a dictatorship.

I highly doubt it's true, but the Patriot Act sucks indeed.

[Zarn]

Oh, Beet.  I could never go through life as pessimistic as you are.  I don't know how you survive.  *hughughug*

The issue isn't "realpolitik." The reason why I am concerned about protests is that when they turn out the way the situation in Libya has turned out, it can end up hurting more people than helping. Isn't the fact that the country has fallen into civil war, some 140,000 people have been displaced from their homes, and some 6,000 people have been killed something to consider? Or are these facts on the ground irrelevant because we were taught in school that any armed uprising purporting to speak in the name of liberal democracy is automatically worthwile?

Liberty is the most important thing.

Is it? Where was the liberty on 9/12 when the Patriot Act was being proposed? In theory, "give me liberty or give me death" is what Westerners tend to admire, but in reality, even most Westerners will take government provided security over physical danger or death. It's a mistake to project our own values and dreams onto other people's lived reality. The lived reality in Libya right now isn't very good.

@ Antonio: the West should definitely consider intervention, as I've mentioned many times.

So you favor the Patriot Act?

I don't. I would rather die than live in a dictatorship.

DRAMAZ!

It's common sense. It doesn't entail suicide. It entails dying to get things back to the side of liberty. Just because you like control, doesn't mean everyone does.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What would Beet have said about Romania in December of 1989?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I don't want to sound like a moderate hero, but I'd be very cautious with intervention talk. Remember, unlike Egypt or Tunisia, those are not massive protests: this is a civil war already.

Should international community intervene with force or not? I really don't know

All I know that there's always a risk such a mission can turn into another creppy "nation-building" which, I dare to say, is going to be much worse both for Libya and the region, that Gaddafi now.

[John Dibble]

I don't want to sound like a moderate hero, but I'd be very cautious with intervention talk. Remember, unlike Egypt or Tunisia, those are not massive protests: this is a civil war already.

Should international community intervene with force or not? I really don't know

All I know that there's always a risk such a mission can turn into another creppy "nation-building" which, I dare to say, is going to be much worse both for Libya and the region, that Gaddafi now.

We should probably avoid any nation building - the opposition seems to have a handle on things for the most part in regards to keeping things running. Anything we do should only be aimed at getting Gaddafi out to keep the conflict from becoming prolonged.

[The Mikado]

Quite honestly, the people of Libya having the ability to govern themselves is far more important than "Regional stability."

EDIT:  And, yes, full-out civil war is a step up from living under the rule of Muammar al-Qaddafi.

[Zarn]

Quite honestly, the people of Libya having the ability to govern themselves is far more important than "Regional stability."

EDIT:  And, yes, full-out civil war is a step up from living under the rule of Muammar al-Qaddafi.

Great, I agree with Mikado...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The trouble with 'hard headed' (or do you prefer 'hard boiled'?) realism is that it is seldom realistic.

[John Dibble]

Well, it appears the bastard is using child soldiers. Wish I could say I was surprised.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/gaddafis-child-fighters-lay-in-morgue-as-rebels-thirst-for-rough-justice/story-e6frg6so-1226015771325

[SvenssonRS]

There should be intervention so the new government can be forced to legalize alcohol. Then we can pull out.

But we never will. That just seems to be the way the U.S. government works.

[Sam Spade]

If the West (i.e. US and some other second-rate countries) is not interested in getting involved, then the odds are going to be in favor of Gaddafi surviving and enacting some pretty interesting revenge on the rebels.  I said 50-50 last week, but to me it looks better than 50-50 as of now.  What happens after that is anyone's guess as the old guy has always been quite unpredictable - maybe he'll go back to hijacking planes and bombing sports events.

If we want to get rid of Gaddafi, we should be using aircraft to take down Libyan planes and arming the rebels to attack Gaddafi areas and Tripoli.  But we're rapidly losing time on that front if that's the goal.  Any type of half-assed/quasi-humanitarian effort will fail and end up in innocent lives being lost for no purpose.

As for Obama's ME policy in general, I'm just trying to figure out whether it's incompetent or sinister.  Seriously.

[SvenssonRS]

Well, according to Wikipedia, two U.S. warships are on their way to Libya through the Suez Canal. This being Wikipedia, however, I'd prefer a more reliable source.

[Sbane]

As for Obama's ME policy in general, I'm just trying to figure out whether it's incompetent or sinister.  Seriously.

What would you prefer he do? Seriously.

[Sbane]

And the west is watching all this without doing anything...

Who are we to be world police and impose our cultural values on others? You don't want to be a colonialist imperialist, do you?

The west gains nothing from intervening. If we can get some Arab states to do our dirty job then we should go for it. Otherwise the west needs to stay out.

[Хahar 🤔]

There should be intervention so the new government can be forced to legalize alcohol. Then we can pull out.

There is no chance that any Libyan government will legalize alcohol.

[RBH]

And the west is watching all this without doing anything...

Who are we to be world police and impose our cultural values on others? You don't want to be a colonialist imperialist, do you?

The west gains nothing from intervening. If we can get some Arab states to do our dirty job then we should go for it. Otherwise the west needs to stay out.

except that no Middle Eastern or African Nation has frozen Gaddafi's assets. (And the chairman of the African Union is freaking Teodoro Obiang of Equatorial Guinea, a nation that has blacked out all coverage of the Libyan uprising)

the Arab government's are in an interesting spot of doing nothing to work for greater freedoms, and then using their media outlets to blame other people for their problems.

In other words, wait on the Arab league, and watch Muammar do a Saddam 1991 on the protesters as the Arab League does nothing. Followed by the people thinking the US is bad. And do something, and watch people think the US is bad.

So it's a matter of choosing who you want to be madder at you. And here, it'd probably be a lot of refugees who will have lost everything and who would have a grudge against the US government.

In the scheme of things, either Gaddafi dies or the protesters die. There's no exile or no compromise.

Oh yeah, they're gonna hold prayers outdoors in the Green Square to make it easier to murder any protesters. And Misurata got bombed.

Damn, deciding on a No-Fly Zone is hard, let's give Gaddafi a few more weeks to attack his opposition from the air.

[Zarn]

Well, according to Wikipedia, two U.S. warships are on their way to Libya through the Suez Canal. This being Wikipedia, however, I'd prefer a more reliable source.

BBC told me US warships were headed there. UK is was also getting something ready.

[Silent Hunter]

Well, according to Wikipedia, two U.S. warships are on their way to Libya through the Suez Canal. This being Wikipedia, however, I'd prefer a more reliable source.

BBC told me US warships were headed there. UK is was also getting something ready.

Yes, that's right: Kearsage and Ponce. Enterprise is in the Red Sea at the moment, seeing how things go.

[Beet]

Government forces are within 1 mile of the central square in Zawiya, and the top rebel commander in the town has been killed. Although I'm not sure what would be worse: the government reprisals against rebels after they re-take the town, or the humanitarian crisis that would have played out in a long drawn-out siege with food supplies not being allowed in. Probably the latter.

[John Dibble]

Rebels are claiming they've taken the oil port of Ras Lanuf.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE72320420110304

Then again, so is the government.

http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72321220110304

[GMantis]

By the way, is actually any oil being exported right now? Either by Gaddafi or the opposition?Because Qadaffi especially will soon have serious problems paying his mercenaries if he can't export oil (that's if he's not press ganging them).

[John Dibble]

By the way, is actually any oil being exported right now? Either by Gaddafi or the opposition?Because Qadaffi especially will soon have serious problems paying his mercenaries if he can't export oil (that's if he's not press ganging them).

They are at about half-capacity, or 700,000-750,000 barrels per day. This is in no small part due to foreign workers having been evacuated. Oil is still being paid for, but Gaddafi may not be able to actually collect the payments due to most of his assets being frozen.

http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE72018W20110304

[John Dibble]

Libya has shut off their internet again.

http://techcrunch.com/2011/03/04/libya/

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Government forces are within 1 mile of the central square in Zawiya, and the top rebel commander in the town has been killed. Although I'm not sure what would be worse: the government reprisals against rebels after they re-take the town, or the humanitarian crisis that would have played out in a long drawn-out siege with food supplies not being allowed in. Probably the latter.

I was somewhat surprised this hadn't happened sooner.  That it didn't was likely due in part to that IIRC the rebels in Zawiya had indicated that they were opposed to foreign intervention.  If the pro-Gaddafi side is moving in, they've either decided they aren't going to retake the east anytime soon and/or Zawiya is no longer useful in dissuading foreign help to the rebels.

[The Mikado]

Both Qaddafi and the rebels have taken/lost a city today.  In the words of Sam Spade, "Interesting..."