"Murderous London is like old New York"

[Storebought]

An opinion article from the Telegraph about the absurd street crime rates of the UK's capitol:

Telegraph Opinion Article

Better London than Camden NJ, though

<<Fixing long url - PB>>

[English]

What complete tosh.
London certainly isn't crime free but that article is just sensationalist rubbish.
I've been to London dozens and dozens of times and not once have I been a victim of crime, seen violence or felt in danger.
To say people expect to be burgled in Islington and Notting Hill is far fetched in the extreme.

In short. Rubbish.

[Tory]

Iv'e never been in a London neighborhood and expected to get mugged.

This story is quite ridiculous.

[English]

Iv'e never been a London neighborhood and expected to get mugged.

This story is quite ridiculous.

Fear of crime is certainly out of control in the UK, it's getting seriously out of hand in my opinion. Articles like this are just further proof of this alarmist and frankly hysterical atmosphere towards crime in Britain. Yes, crime is a problem, but the vast majority of it is petty theft and vandalism. Ask most people and they seem to imagine that you'll get murdered or be attacked by gangs of hooded youths if you venture out after dark. Just nonsense.
Serious incidents do occur, as they do in EVERY country in the world, however Britain is far from the lawless, lethally dangerous country people portray it to be. I regularly socialise in Leeds and Manchester, 2 cities with fearsome reputations. The worst I've seen is a few prostitutes and the odd drunken fight.

[Richard]

Hmm, this makes the second article in the last 3 months that I read about out of control crime in the UK.

I'm certainly happy not to live there.

[English]

Hmm, this makes the second article in the last 3 months that I read about out of control crime in the UK.

I'm certainly happy not to live there.

Tory and I have already refuted these articles. It's just merely conjecture and personal opinion, clearly uninformed opinion at that!
The homicide rate in the UK is among the lowest in the world. In fact I believe it's half that of Canada, yet we have twice Canada's population. Sexual Assault rates in Britain are also a mere fraction of those in the US.
These articles are little more than complete tripe perpetuated by frankly paranoid, bitter individuals who think every teenager on the street is a mugger and every youth who knocks on your door is a murderer or rapist. Utter rubbish.
You only need watch UK TV to see where they get it from. Every week there are hundreds of programs about gangs and anti-social youths, ridiculous. Britain is turning into a nation which actively fears and loathes it's children. It's a terrible state to be in.

[Bono]

Hmm, this makes the second article in the last 3 months that I read about out of control crime in the UK.

I'm certainly happy not to live there.

Tory and I have already refuted these articles. It's just merely conjecture and personal opinion, clearly uninformed opinion at that!
The homicide rate in the UK is among the lowest in the world. In fact I believe it's half that of Canada, yet we have twice Canada's population. Sexual Assault rates in Britain are also a mere fraction of those in the US.
These articles are little more than complete tripe perpetuated by frankly paranoid, bitter individuals who think every teenager on the street is a mugger and every youth who knocks on your door is a murderer or rapist. Utter rubbish.
You only need watch UK TV to see where they get it from. Every week there are hundreds of programs about gangs and anti-social youths, ridiculous. Britain is turning into a nation which actively fears and loathes it's children. It's a terrible state to be in.

So, your anecdotal evidence is better than theirs. Murder rate is different from crime rate.

On an sidenote, I must say I've been mugged once, and in my neighbourhood, byt tehre are some places i would not venture into even during the day.

[John Dibble]

You know, I notice some people saying 'I've never been a victim of crime' or 'I don't got to X expecting to get mugged' and things like that, I have some news for you - you can be a victim of crime at any place and any time. Just because it has not happened or you don't expect it to happen does not mean it can't or won't happen.

Nobody really thought 9/11 would happen - surprise, it happened.

I'm quite sure when my father went out to the store one night he did not expect to get murdered - and we live in a relatively quiet area as far as crime goes.

Don't EVER have the attitude that it can't happen to you, I don't care where you are, even if it's your own house. It's a foolish attitude to have.

[Storebought]

You know, I notice some people saying 'I've never been a victim of crime' or 'I don't got to X expecting to get mugged' and things like that, I have some news for you - you can be a victim of crime at any place and any time.
Nobody really thought 9/11 would happen - surprise, it happened.

I'm quite sure when my father went out to the store one night he did not expect to get murdered - and we live in a relatively quiet area as far as crime goes.

Don't EVER have the attitude that it can't happen to you, I don't care where you are, even if it's your own house. It's a foolish attitude to have.

You have a real knack for summing up an idea in one neat package. I'd make one small amendment-- "Just because it has not happened or you don't expect it to happen does not mean it can't or won't happen to you or other people"

[Richard]

http://www.nraila.org/NewSite/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=78

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You know, if *Rather* says the the UK has a worse crime problem than the United States (and he is a liberal), well, *whew*

I dare you to bring some statistics forth comparing the UK and Canada.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Perhaps.  Lets talk assault, burglary, grand theft auto, and fraud.

[English]

The NRA!!!!??? Oh PLEASE!!
I really can't abide people telling me my country is a dangerous, crime ridden hole when they don't even live here, or in some cases have never even visited.
You cannot compare most crime statistics between nations as the way crime is recorded varies enormously. UK police forces issue crime numbers for extremely petty offences, for insurance purposes. Do other nations? Perhaps not.
Whether you chose to believe me is your affair, however the chance of being murdered in Britain is extremely remote indeed. A city like Leeds which has a high crime rate has perhaps 8 or 9 homicides per year and most of those are gang related. A similar sized US city like Baltimore has perhaps 50 times this!
As for assaults, yes they're more common here, but you know why? The UK has a culture of heavy drinking and high alcohol consumption. 95% of these assaults are alcohol related, bar brawls etc. If you keep to yourself or you don't frequent dodgy bars you'll be fine. As far as burglary and car theft are concerned, the UK has a problem true, but then again it's due to poor security (or no security?). People leaving doors and windows open etc. It's all oportunism. Robbery and burglary with violence is extremely rare.
So please refrain from continuing this tirade as you're evidently very misinformed and there's no wonder when you consider which articles you've been reading. The UK/Euro-hating gun obsessed NRA and right wing cranks from the Daily Telegraph.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Sheffield and Pittsburgh are a similer size, have similer political outlooks, a similer (historical) economic base and similer economic problems due to the collapse of said base.

Compare those two

[English]

http://www.crime-reduction.gov.uk/sta_index.htm

End of argument. Soaring crime in the UK is a myth.

More Proof.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/1619107.stm

http://www.cipfa.org.uk/publicfinance/news_details.cfm?news_id=18928

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0%2C11026%2C999752%2C00.html

Crime in the UK is falling. Changes in how it's recorded and the fact that 'black eyes' and theft of garden gnomes etc. are now recorded, mask the true trend in crime which is downwards. These show the facts, not just conjecture and opinion from some right wing US organisation.

[English]

Again, most of the perceived boom in crime in Britain is claptrap....
It's just utter hysteria...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3044625.stm

[English]

All the crime figures you could ever want here....

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cnscj.pdf

Compares crime rates in the US/UK/Canada/Australia etc.

Quite funny actually Richius, because if you care to analyse the figures above you'll find for Homicide, Rape & Armed Robbery, Canada is worse than the UK!!
Scotland actually has some of the lowest crime figures.

Yet more evidence that 'Crime Ridden UK' is a load of nonsense.

[English]

Just one absurdity with comparing crime figures between nations.....

According to the International Crime Survey, Finland has a higher crime rate than Colombia!! Er? Somehow I think not!!  I think I'd feel safe walking around Helsinki at night than Bogota!

[ATFFL]

All the crime figures you could ever want here....

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cnscj.pdf

Compares crime rates in the US/UK/Canada/Australia etc.

Quite funny actually Richius, because if you care to analyse the figures above you'll find for Homicide, Rape & Armed Robbery, Canada is worse than the UK!!
Scotland actually has some of the lowest crime figures.

Yet more evidence that 'Crime Ridden UK' is a load of nonsense.

Did you really look at that report?

Canada: Homicides 1981=647 1999=536 (pg 151)
Endland: Homicide 1981=559 1999=746 (pg 34)

While England and Wales do have a lower per capita rate, the rate has been climbing, not dropping as it is in Canada.

Canada does not report rape figures seperately.  It is unfair to compare rape to sexual assault as one includes a whole host of other crimes.  Likewaise it is unfair to use Canada's aggrivated sexual assault numbers.

Robbery has gone from 4.2% in England to 8.2% over the 18 years of the study.  In Canada it remained at roughly 9.4%.  With the study being 5 years old England and Wales may have passed Canada by now, if the trends continued.

I must work now, more later if the thread still warrants it.

[English]

Thanks for pointing out that it's extremely difficult to compare crime statistics from one nation to another. IT IS!! The UK has an extremely low tolerance to crime and it's growing more intollerant by the minute. Whereas in the 1960's people shrugged off many incidents, they'd now report it to the police. That explains a lot of the increase. My father was only saying the other day how fights were just part and parcel of a night out back in the 60's and 70's. It was just accepted and seldom reported to the police. Now of course, violence isn't tollerated whatsoever (and rightly so). Likewise I'm sure many bar fights in small towns in Alberta or Wyoming still aren't reported to the police.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The U.K has a big problem with petty crime (which is as bad as it is 'cos of Thatcher) but the ASBO's seem to be working well.
It does not have a problem with more serious crimes, and describing London as "murderous" is pathetic.

In addition to this, there are two sets of Crime figures published in the U.K:

1. Recorded Crime
2. British Crime Survey (a massive poll. IIRC it's 20,000 people. May be less may be more)

People are much more likely to report a crime now than they were even ten years ago.

Oh... and for the record I have been a victim of crime this year and no a gun would not have helped the slightest

[ATFFL]

Just a post before mine you were all gung ho to compare crime statistics between nations when you thought they said what you wanted them to say. 

Looking at the numbers for England/Wales your statement about an increase in % reported is correct from 1981-1991, but then the report rate declined from then until 1999.  In some cases the percentage being reported is below 1981 levels.  You can find this data for each crime as probibility reported/offense.

EDIT: In fairness the number of reported assaults did shoot up in 1999.  It does seem the efforts to not tolerate violence yielded some fruit.  The tolerance for petty or non violent crimes is back where it was when the study began though.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Just a post before mine you were all gung ho to compare crime statistics between nations when you thought they said what you wanted them to say. 

Looking at the numbers for England/Wales your statement about an increase in % reported is correct from 1981-1991, but then the report rate declined from then until 1999.  In some cases the percentage being reported is below 1981 levels.  You can find this data for each crime as probibility reported/offense.

EDIT: In fairness the number of reported assaults did shoot up in 1999.  It does seem the efforts to not tolerate violence yielded some fruit.  The tolerance for petty or non violent crimes is back where it was when the study began though.

The Coppers have been trying to get the number of unreported offenses down. Comparing reported crimes year-on-year is (IMO) extremely risky.
Which is why the British Crime Survey was set up

[The Man From G.O.P.]

HMHMHMHMHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM perhaps if.....maybe....possibly....... the election went conservative....they could implement their new police program (by the way, I know some in some areas theyve gotten with the program but it's really time you gave your boys some heavy equipment) id take a six year old and a glock .45 over a fat bobby with a billy club or a nightstick any day

[Tender Branson]

"Murderous London is like old New York" - what a crap. There were 180 homicides in London in the year ending June 30, 2006 according to the London Metro Police -> http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/ compared to the nearly 600 in New York. So London has a homicide rate of about 2.5 per 100.000 inhabitants while NY has about 7.3 -> about 3 times higher than London. I went to London 5 times and i went through Tower Hamlets, the so called "crime hot spots" and never ever happened anything to me or the people with me. Nearly every bigger european city has a lower homicide rate than any bigger US-City, except maybe the baltic cities. For comparison: Austria has 8.3 mio. people and in 2005 there were 58 (completed) homicides. Therefore a homicide rate of 0,7. Vienna has 1,6 mio. people (comparable to philadelphia) and had about 20 homicides in 2005 while Philly had about 400. So Vienna has the same amount of homicides that Philly has in half a month.

[Michael Z]

Iv'e never been in a London neighborhood and expected to get mugged.

This story is quite ridiculous.

I actually found Cambridge a lot rougher than London. After pub closing time I'd rather be anywhere in London than Cherry Hinton or Mill Road.

[??????????]

I just thought this old thread was hilarious.