Anyone notice how the press is lifting up Islam while smearing Christianity?

[milhouse24]

it's ironic how they're lifting up a religion that at its core, doesn't believe in religious freedom (which also means they don't believe in freedom of speech or freedom of the press).  guess it is a sign of how much they're offended by the New Testament.

Haha, the Old Testament believers control the Media, don't criticize their religion or they will punish you publicly.  They have been at War with the New Testament believers since Roman catholic europe and will not stop in the power struggle until they gain more power.  

However, I was thinking that Muslim conversion in urban america might decrease crime or drug use in urban america.

[Antonio the Sixth]

No, because it's not true.

[afleitch]

No.

If anything, from the US media that I have access too it is quite the opposite. Christian pastors and preachers continue to crop up on local news to voice opinions, or contribute to newspaper articles. Not to mention the wide ranging Christian cable media network, radio stations, online presence and so forth that saturate the airwaves. Islam doesn't have that.

Islamic organisations are also less likely to try and influence politics, they do not hold a huge influence over certain legislators, they do not actively seek to enforce moralism though recalls, political activism or propositions.

I could go on.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

ernest...my treatment of islam is based on what is stated n the koran

If you think Muslims agree on how to interpret the Quran any better than Christians agree on how to interpret the Bible, you are sadly mistaken.

Well, since it has been shown innumerable times on this board that nonbelievers are more capable of honestly interpreting the bible than most Christian, who the vast majority are simply playing games, let’s throw the verses out there and let the chips fall where they may.

And since you and I, both professing Christians, are in disagreement over this matter, let’s think about that for a moment, shall we?  What could one of us be missing?  Let’s retrace the statements of the Muslim scriptures and let’s see if we can put our finger on the detail we may have overlooked.  One of us may have his head buried in the sand hoping we’re all going to get along together happily for ever after, one of us may have decided that ignoring truth would increase our happiness in life and make the world a better place….

“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Sura 9:73

“Mohammed is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Sura 48:29

“Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His apostle have forbidden and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” Sura 9:29

“The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: ‘Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’” (The Hadith)

Of course, this is in sharp contrast to teachings of the NT: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you only love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:43-48

And for all those Christians who deny the supremacy of Christ and accept Muslims as fellow believers, here is what the Koran says in regard to those who accept the Deity of Christ:

“Those who say, 'God is the Messiah, son of Mary,' have defied God. The Messiah himself said, 'Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers…. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.” 5:72

So, Christians, the Koran salvational advice for you is to not think that Jesus Christ was any more than a man, else you’ll be condemned.  So we better forget that Jesus is the Son of God, for as the Koran says:

“People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust”  4:171

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I'd hardly say that it's rooted in nothing. Several people were actually able to intelligently disagree with it, after all. In an increasingly global world these kind of issues will become more and more important to deal with and I would think disagreeing would be more appropriate than dismissing in this case.

Besides, if you really think it's better not to respond then not responding would seem better than just displaying some kind of mob behaviour by quoting a post that had no content to begin with. At least in my opinion.

If you read my post correctly, I just stated why the responses were like they were and that some people shouldn't have responded, I didn't attack the OP. That aside, I do think that it's incorrect to assert that Christianity is more attacked than Islam.

Making analogies between American religious conservatives and Islamic religious conservatives is one reason that the hypocrisy of white “enlightened” liberals is rather galling to many.  Sayyid al-Qutib found 1950s America to be a culturally liberal cesspool, there is no comparison. Especially because nearly all people on the Left would prefer to live in a standard Western Judeo-Christian/secular country as opposed to a Muslim country.

The reality is that Muslims Americans have views, which if they were white Protestant Christians would get them labeled as slack-jawed inbred cretins. Here's something that will blow your mind: The average US Muslim is probably around where jmfcst is with more melanin.

They are “people of color” so their beliefs get a pass.

I can see people on the Left holding criticisms of some Islamic views but fear being considered “Islamophobic,” at best or "racist" at worst. This going on while defending criticism of Christian conservatives as Gustaf's example illustrated earlier.

For example I made a thread about US doctors here:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=133714.0
Nearly 3 out of 4 Muslim doctors believe in ID over Evolution, nearly 40% higher than the highest Christian group. I want a liberal to come forward and say that they are the most backward on this issue. But all debate on the ID/Evolution debate is concentrated on Christianity and less so on any other religion.

I'am a strongly against against racially-driven bigotry against Muslims and support equal rights for all. But defending the rights of religious freedom of a minority does not mean that you need to pretend they are not objectionable. Yet I agree Muslims can positively contribute to reducing many social ills in urban communities such as out-of-wedlock births, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, etc. Maybe if 9/11 hadn't occurred it would have been a "colored" people's Mormonism.

I don’t think this has anything to do with race, for the media will gleefully lift up white “Christians” who don’t adhere to the NT, while any Christian, regardless of race, who adheres to the teachings of the NT is ridiculed without exception.

If any Christian proclaims the supremacy of Christ and preaches according to the NT, the media tars and feathers them.  The media, once again, is making a deliberate choice to advocate anything that stands against the NT.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Well, really I think it's true but false at the same time. The nation is undergoing a secularization that paints Christians in a negative light, but at the same time the majority of Americans are Christians.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

First off, strike the hadith cite immediately in any discussion of what all Muslims agree upon.  Not only do not all branches of Islam use the hadith, those that do don't agree on which hadith are valid.

"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better than mere disputation, unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury: but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow in submission."  Sura 29:46

This is a clear statement in the Quran against the forcible conversion of other Peoples of the Book to Islam.  Nor did the Arab conquest of the seventh century result in such forcible conversions.  I'll grant that one significant difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam calls for its followers to establish political control, which Christianity does not (or at least did not until Constantine came along three centuries after Christ).  Now in practice, some Muslims have an overly broad definition of wrong and injury.

"Those who believe in the Quran, and those who follow the Torah, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."  Sura 2:62

So despite what you stated earlier, the Quran does not make the claim that one must be a Muslim to be saved.  While not all who profess to be Muslim are ecumenical in their approach, the Quran most decidedly is.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

First off, strike the hadith cite immediately in any discussion of what all Muslims agree upon.  Not only do not all branches of Islam use the hadith, those that do don't agree on which hadith are valid.

"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better than mere disputation, unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury: but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow in submission."  Sura 29:46

This is a clear statement in the Quran against the forcible conversion of other Peoples of the Book to Islam.  Nor did the Arab conquest of the seventh century result in such forcible conversions.  I'll grant that one significant difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam calls for its followers to establish political control, which Christianity does not (or at least did not until Constantine came along three centuries after Christ).  Now in practice, some Muslims have an overly broad definition of wrong and injury.

"Those who believe in the Quran, and those who follow the Torah, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."  Sura 2:62

So despite what you stated earlier, the Quran does not make the claim that one must be a Muslim to be saved.  While not all who profess to be Muslim are ecumenical in their approach, the Quran most decidedly is.

Federalist,

It’s clear to anyone knowing the history that Mohammad started off trying to make friends with the Jews and Christians, then later, after the Jews and Christians rejected him, turned against them…hence the contradictions with how to deal with Jews and Christians.

You won’t find any contradictions in the NT with how to deal with nonbelievers.

And as far as the point about Islam attempting to establish political control while the NT doesn’t (notwithstanding heretical Christians who attempted it, both Catholic and Protestant), I completely agree with you.  And, of course, that means that at its core, since it does attempt to establish political control, the Koran is NOT tolerant of religious freedom…so you’ve just made my point.

But, sticking with the idea of pushing for a state established religion, has it ever tickled your curiosity that the bible paints a picture of during the endtimes a religion will arise that is mandated by the state, and that this state-religion attempts to wipe out both Jews and Christians?  So what current religion in the world aims at state control and also views Jews and Christians as its chief enemy?  Islam.

Now, that doesn’t mean Islam has to be that endtime religion, for another religion can arise given enough time.  But do you know that many of the European nations have already calculated what year they will become a Muslim majority nation?  “In France, 30% of children age 20 years and below are Muslims. The ratio in Paris and Marseille has soared to 45%. In southern France, there are more mosques than churches…The situation within the United Kingdom is not much different. In the last 30 years, the Muslim population there has climbed from 82,000 to 2.5 million. Presently, there are over 1000 mosques throughout Great Britain - - many of which were converted from churches…In Belgium, 50% of the newborns are Muslims and reportedly its Islamic population hovers around 25%.”

I’ve already laid out the case that if Christ comes back in the next 50 years, the US fits perfectly with the description of Mystery Babylon.  And if Christ does come back this century, Islam fits the prophesied endtime religion that merges political control and religious belief, this is both antiJewish and antiChristian.  And Islam is focused on, like no other religion, getting back the Promised Land from the Jews.

So, maybe in time, another nation will arise that will fit the description for Mystery Babylon, and maybe another religion will arise that will fit the description of the endtime religion that practices beheading and is focused on Jerusalem and wants to make war against Jews and Christians.  Or maybe the antiChrist will quickly bring forth his own religion by merging different religions or simply inventing it out of wholeclothe.  I am not sure.  But one thing I am sure of – the United States and Islam both currently fit the descriptions of Mystery Babylon and the endtime religion, respectively.  And some of the things mentioned in Revelation that I take as symbolism may not be so symbolic after all:

Rev 20:4 “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

[patrick1]

jmf, what is up with the gore bro? 

[Хahar 🤔]

Calm down.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

jmf, what is up with the gore bro? 

sorry if I duplicated any pics, I couldnt see them on the first post where I referred to beheading, so I created another post for the pics.

I just wanted to make it clear that the "radical" portions of Islam are NOT isolated, but rather follow Islam wherever it goes.  Because, just as Ernest pointed out, and just as I have been pointing out, Islam does NOT believe in freedom of religion, rather its goal is to force Islamic law on the entire world through state control.

[anvi]

I think the media reports both very positive and very negative stories about Muslims everywhere.  Just today, in Japan's Asahi news, there is a report about Muslims in Japan volunteering to help homeless earthquake and tsunami victims by cooking meals for all those in shelters every day.  There are also stores about bombings instigated by Muslim terror groups, harsh treatment and sentences handed down against women in Muslim countries, and plans by Iran to further develop their nuclear arsenal and casting aspersions and threats at Israel.  It's all real, so it should all get reported, and we have to sort it out.

By the way, the verses from the Qur'an like the ones you quoted, jmf, were ones Muslim scriptural commentators would argue are about specific historical conflicts between early Muslims and Qurash, the battle of Badr and so forth.  Understanding those passages from the Qur'an as general directives for how Muslims should treat Jews and Christians would be like taking God's specific instructions to the ancient Israelites to conquer cities in Canaan in the Hebrew Bible like general directives for how modern Israelites should treat Palestinians.  Taking isolated verses out of context often does poor justice to the meanings of scriptures.  If that's true of the Bible, it will also be true of the Qur'an.  What sort of impression would, say, non-Christians who knew very little about the religion have about it if the only things they ever heard about the Christian Bible were verses like these, apart from their context?

(Moses commanded:) "Kill all the male children.  Kill also all the women who have slept with a man.  Spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves."  Numbers 31:17-18.

(God said:)  "You for your part must make no covenant with the inhabitants of this country; you must destroy their alters.  But you have not obeyed my orders.  What is it that you have done.  Very well, I now say this.  I am going to drive out these nations before you."  Judges 2:2-3.

(Jesus speaking to "the Jews"):  "The devil is your father, and you prefer to do what your father wants.  He was a murderer from the start; he was never grounded in the truth;...he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44.

But, having said all that, there are lots of examples from Islamic history, and from today, of Muslims using Qur'anic verses to justify violence in the name of their political causes; just as there are some examples of such behavior from Christian history.  There are certainly plenty of examples of Muslim societies in the past that expanded through violence, war and conquest, and there are Muslims in the modern world who do indeed believe that all human societies should live under Sharia.  I have no problem calling out Muslims who believe and do these things, I think everyone should, including other Muslims. 

But, back to the "it's all true" theme, there are also lots of examples of religious toleration and openness in Islamic history (Spain for a number centuries under Muslim rule, India under Mughal rule, ect), just as there are examples of the same in Christian history.  One of the profs I had in graduate school was a Muslim guy from Lebanon, an expert in the history of Qur'an and Hadith interpretation, who believes that Sharia and all traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence should be abolished everywhere, even in Muslim countries.  He said that everywhere he went, no matter how much criticism he came under by other Muslims when he did so. 

Neither the Bible nor the Qur'an, neither followers of Christianity nor Islam, can be reduced to one set of beliefs, interpretations and political aims.  We should, in my view, openly deal with it all, criticize what's nefarious and praise what's good.  If there is a God, he might be simple truth, justice and wisdom--but for our part, we human beings are just a complicated and contradictory mess.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so, you're saying there are segments of the Koran that don't apply to modern day Muslims, just like the Law of Moses doesn't apply to Christians?!

[Lunar]

pls don't post pictures of decapitation on this board, very obviously not allowed

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

sorry, but the context of those verses I quoted out of the Koran isn't an historical account, but rather is a continuing command.

...which is unlike the verses of slaughter in the OT that not only do not apply to Christians, but also only applied during the time of conquest of the promised land (it wasn't a command that even the Jews continually had to obey)...and we know that because it explicitly says "when you enter the land"

And as far as Jesus calling some of the Jews children of the devil in John 8:44, that is not limited to the Jews for the NT says that against anyone who rejects truth (see 1John 3:7-10)...so I have no idea why you would bring that verse up other than the fact you dont know the new testament

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

pls don't post pictures of decapitation on this board, very obviously not allowed

I understand, but is it stated somewhere we cant post pictures of killings?  I remember someone posted JFK's autopsy pics once, which I found distasteful because it was totally unnecessary to post pics of what should be a private moment, but I wouldn't have a problem with someone posting the frames that show his head exploding or pics of the Jews being killed in the holocaust.  As graphic as they may be, we can't can't turn our eyes away from evil acts.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

jmf, let me leave aside the whole issue of Islam, since I don't think your preconceptions there are going to be changed by any argument I might bring.  (How you link a desire for political control to an inevitable desire for decapitation is beyond me, so I have no idea how to counter that notion.)  However, in your identification of Mystery Babylon with the United States, how do you square that with the explicit identification of Mystery Babylon as a city that is repeatedly made in Revelation 17-18.  I could possibly see an identification being made between Mystery Babylon and New York City, but not with the United States or any other country.

[Lunar]

It has to do with how graphic it is, not the general concept of a death.  Severed heads counts as graphic.  The specific rule that you violated in the Terms Of Service is my interpretation of the prohibition against "obscene" postings.  This board is not the right place to discuss moderation policies, however.  If you have questions regarding this, please take it elsewhere.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

But, having said all that, there are lots of examples from Islamic history, and from today, of Muslims using Qur'anic verses to justify violence in the name of their political causes; just as there are some examples of such behavior from Christian history.

I am not denying some Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, have attempted to justify killing of those who disagreed with their doctrine, but they don’t have one single passage in the NT to stand on.  Instead, they have the entire NT condemning their actions.

It is plain heresy for any Christian to attempt to harm another person on account of what the other person believes.  When encountering nonbelievers who don’t accept the message, Christians are simply instructed by the NT to shake the dust off their shoes and move on to preach to others.  If the heresy occurs in the church, Christians are merely instructed by the NT not to associate at all with false brothers.  And when the disciples wanted to kill everyone in a town for not accepting them, Jesus rebuked them and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man came not to destroy people's lives but to save.”  (Luke 9:55)

So, whether it be a heretic former Pope or the heretic John Calvin, any Christian who believes he has a right to kill people because of their beliefs is a complete and utter idiot.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It has to do with how graphic it is, not the general concept of a death.  Severed heads counts as graphic.  The specific rule that you violated in the Terms Of Service is my interpretation of the prohibition against "obscene" postings.  This board is not the right place to discuss moderation policies, however.  If you have questions regarding this, please take it elsewhere.

dude, I was just asking a general question, I wasnt planning to take you to forum court.  I understand the images of beheadings are disturbing and the acts themselves are obscene, but those images are revealant to the topic being discussed.  What are we going to do, burn all the holocaust films and pretend it never happened?  Are you aware that that is precisely why the American generals ordered that those pictures be taken, even though the acts were hideous?  Those generals understood the danger of NOT showing the pics, that the world would brush it under the rug and allow it to happen again

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

jmf, let me leave aside the whole issue of Islam, since I don't think your preconceptions there are going to be changed by any argument I might bring.  (How you link a desire for political control to an inevitable desire for decapitation is beyond me, so I have no idea how to counter that notion.)

you do understand that beheadings are a part of sharia law, right?

====

 However, in your identification of Mystery Babylon with the United States, how do you square that with the explicit identification of Mystery Babylon as a city that is repeatedly made in Revelation 17-18.  I could possibly see an identification being made between Mystery Babylon and New York City, but not with the United States or any other country.

cities are often used to symbolize countries in the bible

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Also look at the past century. More Christians were killed for their faith than in the previous 19 combined. In the last days there will be those who in killing you that they think they are doing God a service.

There has been open persecution of Christians even here in the united states. Do I need to remind you of 4/20/1999.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

johanus, ur making it sound like islam is a threat only to christianty, when in reality it is a threat to anyone not muslim, including those at CNN who r lifting it up

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Also look at the past century. More Christians were killed for their faith than in the previous 19 combined. In the last days there will be those who in killing you that they think they are doing God a service.

There has been open persecution of Christians even here in the united states. Do I need to remind you of 4/20/1999.

How? I would figue the Catholic church back when it was evil combined with the crusades would have made the number higher. We probably just are better at keeping track of people now than we were in the previous 19 centuries.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

yeah, I also think his numbers are way way off