Austrian bakery sells Nazi-cakes, owner faces prison
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  Austrian bakery sells Nazi-cakes, owner faces prison
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Tender Branson
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« on: April 05, 2011, 01:37:25 PM »

Austrian pastry maker may face charges for baking Nazi cakes

An Austrian pastry maker faces a criminal investigation for baking cakes with elaborate Nazi designs, a concentration camp survivors' group said after pressing charges on Tuesday.

The Mauthausen Committee says the bakery, located in the village of Maria
Enzersdorf near Vienna, offers cakes adorned with a sugary swastika or with a baby raising its right hand in a Nazi salute, pictures in his catalogue show.

Pastry chef Manfred Klaschka told broadcaster ORF at his cafe said "If someone orders it, I make it."

Willi Mernyi, the chairman of the survivors' group Mauthausen Committee said in response that "this is exactly the sort of thinking led us into the disaster 70 years ago."

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/austrian-pastry-maker-may-face-charges-for-baking-nazi-cakes-1.354284
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2011, 02:18:09 PM »

Good to see that they're still fascist down in Austria.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2011, 03:17:03 PM »

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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2011, 04:04:35 PM »


How are Nazi cakes freedom of speech? They're not.
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Horus
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2011, 04:20:51 PM »

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Insula Dei
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2011, 04:27:23 PM »


How are Nazi cakes freedom of speech? They're not.

Why do only our (American) Libertarians seem to think they do? The idea Nazi cakes should be allowed is personally offensive (dare I say: repulsive?) to me. Anyone who's got even the faintest understanding of what this about will know the feeling.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2011, 04:31:58 PM »


How are Nazi cakes freedom of speech? They're not.

If someone wants to express an idea of some sort with a Nazi cake how isn't it free speech? I suppose it might not fall under the literal category of speech since it's not spoken, but we could still call it freedom of expression.

Why do only our (American) Libertarians seem to think they do? The idea Nazi cakes should be allowed is personally offensive (dare I say: repulsive?) to me. Anyone who's got even the faintest understanding of what this about will know the feeling.

The idea of something being personally offensive to you is not sufficient reason to ban it.
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Horus
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2011, 04:34:00 PM »
« Edited: April 05, 2011, 04:39:24 PM by Sheliak5 »


How are Nazi cakes freedom of speech? They're not.

Why do only our (American) Libertarians seem to think they do? The idea Nazi cakes should be allowed is personally offensive (dare I say: repulsive?) to me. Anyone who's got even the faintest understanding of what this about will know the feeling.

It repulses me just as much as it disgusts you, or anyone else of sound mind I'm sure. Secondly, it repulses me very much also to deny someone the right to express themselves, as disagreeable, tasteless or evil as their view might be.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2011, 04:39:32 PM »

Before everyone goes all libertarian on this issue you might want to remember that this is Austria's way of saying they would very much like to kill their Jews again if given the chance.

I mean, technically, the Hutu radio hosts calling for the extermination of Tutsi cockroaches were also exercising their right to free speech, but on the other hand...
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2011, 04:46:14 PM »

I don't believe in someone's right to bake Nazi cakes, sorry. Some things should never be trivialized or dealed with lightly. Freedom of speech is on my priority scale way less important than to make sure that something like that could never happen again and that it will never be forgotten.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 04:51:39 PM »

Before everyone goes all libertarian on this issue you might want to remember that this is Austria's way of saying they would very much like to kill their Jews again if given the chance.

It's not like we don't understand that, but unless there's some indication that they're actually going to do it then taking this kind of action is going overboard.

Also, it's not like this kind of ban is all that effective - this kind of behavior has been banned in Europe for decades and yet these people still do it. It in no way solves the problem and only makes martyrs out of the ones that get caught, so the ban ends up only encouraging the rest of them and making them go underground. I would much prefer to let them do it openly so we can just point out their ignorance and bigotry and so that law enforcement could keep tabs on these potentially violent people so that they're more likely to catch them in the event that they do act.

I don't believe in someone's right to bake Nazi cakes, sorry. Some things should never be trivialized or dealed with lightly. Freedom of speech is on my priority scale way less important than to make sure that something like that could never happen again and that it will never be forgotten.

Again, decades of this being banned has quite obviously not solved the problem.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 05:00:23 PM »

No, no, you see problems where there aren't. What matters above all other things is that this sort of thing is not tolerated. There is no way to prevent them from happening, but they have to be utterly unacceptable when they do. There'll always be idiots and scum, that doesn't mean we have to just let them be. One doesn't argue that murder might just as well be legal because 3 millenia of ilegality haven't made it go away either.
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 05:06:45 PM »

No, no, you see problems where there aren't. What matters above all other things is that this sort of thing is not tolerated. There is no way to prevent them from happening, but they have to be utterly unacceptable when they do. There'll always be idiots and scum, that doesn't mean we have to just let them be. One doesn't argue that murder might just as well be legal because 3 millenia of ilegality haven't made it go away either.

     And of course baking a swastika cake is in no way comparable to murder. Ideas do not equal actions.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 05:07:19 PM »

No, no, you see problems where there aren't. What matters above all other things is that this sort of thing is not tolerated. There is no way to prevent them from happening, but they have to be utterly unacceptable when they do. There'll always be idiots and scum, that doesn't mean we have to just let them be.

Who said anything about letting them be? Protest the bakery. Wait until the people who order the cakes come to pick them up, follow them, find out who their Nazi buddies are and then protest all of them at their next Nazi meeting. Cry out to all the world that they are ignorant, bigoted, and wrong. As they are right now you've got all sorts of options to compete with them that does not involve using force, so why go that far?

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I knew that this would come up - apples and oranges. With murder there is a demonstrable metric of harm done that can be shown in every case. Not so here.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 05:14:15 PM »

Before everyone goes all libertarian on this issue you might want to remember that this is Austria's way of saying they would very much like to kill their Jews again if given the chance.

It's not like we don't understand that, but unless there's some indication that they're actually going to do it then taking this kind of action is going overboard.

Also, it's not like this kind of ban is all that effective - this kind of behavior has been banned in Europe for decades and yet these people still do it. It in no way solves the problem and only makes martyrs out of the ones that get caught, so the ban ends up only encouraging the rest of them and making them go underground. I would much prefer to let them do it openly so we can just point out their ignorance and bigotry and so that law enforcement could keep tabs on these potentially violent people so that they're more likely to catch them in the event that they do act.

I don't believe in someone's right to bake Nazi cakes, sorry. Some things should never be trivialized or dealed with lightly. Freedom of speech is on my priority scale way less important than to make sure that something like that could never happen again and that it will never be forgotten.

Again, decades of this being banned has quite obviously not solved the problem.

No offense, but I don't think you have any idea what it is like to be a Jew in Austria, either back then or now.

I'm not in favour of bans of this kind, generally speaking, but in certain countries viewing it as being only about freedom of speech sort of misses the bigger picture.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 05:16:16 PM »
« Edited: April 05, 2011, 05:20:20 PM by Saint-Just Revivalist »

To behave as these people behave is intolerable. You think there's no damage being done here? I can't think of a crime more heinous (so to speak). The things that are being trivialized here are among the most pivotal events of the whole of human history. You say that this is not an act but 'just' speech. I must confess that I'm always baffled at how banal libertarians seem to think 'speech' and 'ideas' are. Why bother having free speech if it doesn't even have any consequences anyway? And if it does have consequences, how is this not an act? How is this not a direct insult to the 5.5 million victims of the Holocaust? How is this not an insult to the very core of humanity?

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It's intolerable that the righteous should always be out there to prevent this evil from finding a place to grow. The only correct response is to destroy it systematically when it pops up and be as harsh as humanely possible in doing so.
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2011, 05:19:31 PM »

To behave as these people behave is intolerable. You think there's no damage being done here? I can't think of a crime more heinous (so to speak). The things that are being trivialized here are  among the most pivotal events of the whole of human history. You say that this is not an act but 'just' speech. I must confess that I'm always baffled at how banal libertarians seem to think 'speech' and 'ideas' are. Why bother having free speech if it doesn't even have any consequences anyway? And if it does have consequences, how is this not an act? How is this not a direct insult to the 5.5 million victims of the Holocaust? How is this not an insult to the very core of humanity?

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It's intolerable that the righteous should always be out there to prevent this evil from finding a place to grow. The only correct response is to destroy it systematically when it pops up and be as harsh as humanely possible in doing so.

     Why should people not be allowed to insult "the very core of humanity"? It's called free speech for a reason, after all.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2011, 05:21:06 PM »

Do none of the libertarians see a problem with the fact that this was subjected to a lawsuit from a survivor organization? I mean, beyond the fact that it goes against free speech and all that?
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2011, 05:23:32 PM »

To behave as these people behave is intolerable. You think there's no damage being done here? I can't think of a crime more heinous (so to speak). The things that are being trivialized here are  among the most pivotal events of the whole of human history. You say that this is not an act but 'just' speech. I must confess that I'm always baffled at how banal libertarians seem to think 'speech' and 'ideas' are. Why bother having free speech if it doesn't even have any consequences anyway? And if it does have consequences, how is this not an act? How is this not a direct insult to the 5.5 million victims of the Holocaust? How is this not an insult to the very core of humanity?

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It's intolerable that the righteous should always be out there to prevent this evil from finding a place to grow. The only correct response is to destroy it systematically when it pops up and be as harsh as humanely possible in doing so.

     Why should people not be allowed to insult "the very core of humanity"? It's called free speech for a reason, after all.

Why shouldn't I go round drowning kittens? Some moral imperatives are of a nature that exceeds my capacities to give them arational foundation. I don't think murder is okay because of that. WHy should it be okay to play pretend the Holocaust wasn't a big deal? I don'tv see how some petty little idea like 'freedom of speech' weighs up against the trivialization of pure evil.
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J. J.
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2011, 05:30:08 PM »

Why don't they goad the guy who ordered them to say "Bite my swastika," and say "Sure," and eat all the pastries.  Smiley

This is silly.  A cookie (or whatever) is going into an oven, not a person.  The swastika, one eaten, will be converted into something more symbolic of Nazism.

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2011, 05:37:07 PM »

The pomposity of libertarianism never ceases to amuse. Anyways...



Of course it is also worth pointing out that one of the core features of libertarian arguments (is it accurate to use that word to describe pure wind? Barring an alternative I suppose it will do...) on the subject - the idea that all legislation on such topics is inherently counterproductive - happens to be wrong; it is, for example, generally acknowledged that the race relations legislation passed by the Wilson government in the 60s was, in the long run, quite successful at making extreme racist behavior socially unacceptable in Britain. There were other factors, naturally. But it certainly wasn't counter productive and certainly didn't make popular martyrs out of the Nazis in the NF.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2011, 05:59:35 PM »

I was going to hang around this thread until I saw a post indicating that someone got it. So, thank you - I really need to sleep, since I have to stand on a tennis court in 7 hours.

I'll leave the libertarians with a little quiz: my grandmother left Austria in 1938. She never returned to live there. Why do you think that is and how do you think it might be related to this story?
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2011, 07:27:10 PM »
« Edited: April 05, 2011, 07:31:06 PM by Snowguy716 »

I don't condone what the guy was doing... but he has the right to make whatever kind of cake he damn well pleases... and in any shape he wants.

But just like a southern White flying the rebel flag is seen by many as an affront to the black community... he has the right to fly it.  And I'd say if any community comes close to what the Jews went through, it was the slaves.

But I think that's the American perspective and Europeans have a tough time understanding it.  Freedom of expression is sacrosanct, for better or for worse.  (except when it isn't, which is a travesty)

Also:  The fact that I can find Mein Kampf at the local bookstore here while owning the book is a crime in Germany and Austria (as far as I remember) says a lot.  Those who would just as soon forget history are doomed to repeat it... and I see a lot of attempts to simply forget the Holocaust among Germans.  If I were in charge.. I'd make every kid read the book... spend large chunks of the school year learning about Hitler.. how f**ked up he was, how his cult of personality led to genocide... to admit that the whole affair was a defining moment of our history, for better or worse, learn from it, and move forward.  Instead you mention Hitler in a room full of Germans and you can cut through the awkwardness with a chainsaw.
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ag
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2011, 07:37:57 PM »

[quote author=Saint-Just Revivalist link=topic=134086.msg2862348#msg2862348
Why do only our (American) Libertarians seem to think they do? The idea Nazi cakes should be allowed is personally offensive (dare I say: repulsive?) to me. Anyone who's got even the faintest understanding of what this about will know the feeling.
[/quote]

Freedom of speech is there precisely to protect the offensive speech. If it is not offensive, it needs no protection. It would be funny if the law only prohibited stealing things nobody wants to steal, wouldn't it?

And, by the way, I am neither a Libertarian, nor an American. In fact, I am Jewish, quite a few relatives of mine perished in the Holocaust and I would most certainly boycot this bakery - as an individual, and would find it very satisfying if its idiot owner would go bankrupt. Still, I do believe that even Nazi speech should be protected - sending him to prison is a travesty.
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ag
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2011, 07:41:44 PM »

Before everyone goes all libertarian on this issue you might want to remember that this is Austria's way of saying they would very much like to kill their Jews again if given the chance.

I mean, technically, the Hutu radio hosts calling for the extermination of Tutsi cockroaches were also exercising their right to free speech, but on the other hand...

I didn't know this guy was Austrian President and Commander-In-Chief. If so, then, of course, he should be neutralized as fast as possible. Or, may be, law-and-order in Austria is collapsing and Nazi thugs are about to take over?

Seriously, there is a difference between me calling on my wife to exterminate all Tutsis in Mexico and the same call coming on radio in Kigali during the genocide.

Disclaimer: I am not libertarian.
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