Austrian bakery sells Nazi-cakes, owner faces prison

[John Dibble]

Good to see that they're still fascist down in Austria.

[John Dibble]

Good to see that they're still fascist down in Austria.

How are Nazi cakes freedom of speech? They're not.

If someone wants to express an idea of some sort with a Nazi cake how isn't it free speech? I suppose it might not fall under the literal category of speech since it's not spoken, but we could still call it freedom of expression.

Why do only our (American) Libertarians seem to think they do? The idea Nazi cakes should be allowed is personally offensive (dare I say: repulsive?) to me. Anyone who's got even the faintest understanding of what this about will know the feeling.

The idea of something being personally offensive to you is not sufficient reason to ban it.

[John Dibble]

Before everyone goes all libertarian on this issue you might want to remember that this is Austria's way of saying they would very much like to kill their Jews again if given the chance.

It's not like we don't understand that, but unless there's some indication that they're actually going to do it then taking this kind of action is going overboard.

Also, it's not like this kind of ban is all that effective - this kind of behavior has been banned in Europe for decades and yet these people still do it. It in no way solves the problem and only makes martyrs out of the ones that get caught, so the ban ends up only encouraging the rest of them and making them go underground. I would much prefer to let them do it openly so we can just point out their ignorance and bigotry and so that law enforcement could keep tabs on these potentially violent people so that they're more likely to catch them in the event that they do act.

I don't believe in someone's right to bake Nazi cakes, sorry. Some things should never be trivialized or dealed with lightly. Freedom of speech is on my priority scale way less important than to make sure that something like that could never happen again and that it will never be forgotten.

Again, decades of this being banned has quite obviously not solved the problem.

[John Dibble]

No, no, you see problems where there aren't. What matters above all other things is that this sort of thing is not tolerated. There is no way to prevent them from happening, but they have to be utterly unacceptable when they do. There'll always be idiots and scum, that doesn't mean we have to just let them be.

Who said anything about letting them be? Protest the bakery. Wait until the people who order the cakes come to pick them up, follow them, find out who their Nazi buddies are and then protest all of them at their next Nazi meeting. Cry out to all the world that they are ignorant, bigoted, and wrong. As they are right now you've got all sorts of options to compete with them that does not involve using force, so why go that far?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I knew that this would come up - apples and oranges. With murder there is a demonstrable metric of harm done that can be shown in every case. Not so here.

[John Dibble]

No offense, but I don't think you have any idea what it is like to be a Jew in Austria, either back then or now.

I'm not in favour of bans of this kind, generally speaking, but in certain countries viewing it as being only about freedom of speech sort of misses the bigger picture.

No, I don't have an idea of what it's like. I don't think you do either. What I do have an idea of is being an atheist in a country with lots of evangelical nuts, many of whom who do not think I'm a real citizen of this country simply because I hold different beliefs than they do and who want the government to officially endorse their ideology. Not to say that it's the same thing, but it's not like I'm completely unaffected by the prejudices of ignorant bigots so I do have some perspective. As offended as I might be by those people I would still fight to the death for their right to advocate those things by peaceful means, because it's the same right that allows me to openly state my earnest beliefs that so offend their sensibilities.

Do none of the libertarians see a problem with the fact that this was subjected to a lawsuit from a survivor organization? I mean, beyond the fact that it goes against free speech and all that?

I noticed. I don't particularly find that relevant. If Anne Frank herself were to descend from the sky wrapped in divine light I'd still hold this position.

To behave as these people behave is intolerable. You think there's no damage being done here? I can't think of a crime more heinous (so to speak).

I can - actually killing people. Seems worse than baking an offensive cake to me.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Too bad - if you haven't figured it out by now then let me inform you that life isn't fair. You may not like it that the righteous actually have to work at keeping the world sane, but that's the way it is.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't view it as humane to throw someone in jail for baking an offensive cake.

Suppose a gang would kill your entire family in the most gruesome way imaginable. Now suppose that when you return to your hometown some years later you find some people 'tagging' your house (or their own house across the street from yours) with the logo of the gang in question. Does speech really not constitute action here?

It would constitute action, because it would be an outright act of intimidation and/or harassment against a person (in addition to damage of private property) and not just an expression of a thought or belief.

In the context of this situation, if a Nazi orders an offensive cake for him and his Nazi buddies to enjoy at one of their meetings, then no harm is done to anyone. On the other hand, if a Nazi were to order such a cake and send it to a Jewish person with the intent of intimidation and/or harassment you would have an actionable offense.

The problem is: banning speech makes it more, not less likely that something like this would ever happen again.

Various restrictions on Nazi activity have been in place in certain countries since the 1940s and yet there has been a curious lack of resurgent fascist regimes in these countries. Extreme racist behavior and rhetoric has been illegal in Britain since the 1960s, yet the people who break the relevant laws are not regarded as martyrs.

The KKK have always been able to legally hold open rallies in the USA, but racism against blacks seems to have been in steady decline. The laws banning the behavior aren't why minds have changed. They may have had some effect but it's not the biggest part. Minds have changed because good, rational people have been constantly fighting this kind of bigotry by expressing their ideas and showing how the bigots are wrong.

And yes, the people who get arrested for this kind of thing do get regarded as martyrs. They are regarded as such by the people who agree with them, just as suicide bombers are regarded as martyrs by the people who agree with them. It only serves to make them more zealous and insular - that's not something we should want.

[John Dibble]

But I'll be more blunt. Why didn't anyone else, beside, you know, the Jews themselves, react to this? How could this guy run this bakery with no one but the Jews minding it?

I don't have enough information to answer that question. It's unknown to me for how long he had these cakes in his catalog, how many people had viewed the catalog, who had viewed the catalog, etc. His bakery is in a village, so I don't assume there's a big population. Maybe the village is full of Nazis and they like it. Maybe others thought the cakes were in jest. Perhaps the people in the village just aren't very observant. Perhaps they have the similar views on free speech and don't think a cake is something to get upset enough about to raise a fuss. Or perhaps a non-Jew saw it and reported it to the Jewish group, which means that non-Jews do mind. Again, lots of possibilities, but not enough information to draw a conclusion.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Of course not. Please tell me you weren't asking seriously.

If you want to end genocide with 100% certainty, then abolish the state, of which genocide is an innovation.

I just wanted to add that this is a really stupid post.

Agreed. Tribes of people have been annihilating eachother long before anything resembling nation-states or even city-states even existed.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Has any of your ancestors been exterminated by Evangelical christians? I assume the answer is no.

1. See bolded section. Perhaps you might care to pay attention next time.
2. Ancestry isn't relevant to persecution in the case of atheists, but atheists have been subjected to various degrees of bad treatment throughout history. Sometimes that treatment was indeed lethal, and is still so in some countries.

My point is that I'm not entirely without perspective on persecution. I've been personally relatively lucky in that regard, but it's not like I can't empathize to some degree.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If there's anyone who does have a right to speak ont his stuff, it's the victims of the shoah themselves, no?[/quote]

I never said they didn't have the right to speak on this stuff. My entire point is that people should have the right to express their opinion.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, I don't like it that you seem to think that those who aren't evil should pay for the idiocy of people without anything ressembling basic decency and spend all their life trying to prevent another Holocaust.[/quote]

And what, you don't think enforcing laws against it doesn't constitute that? They have to exert effort in that regard whether they do it my way or yours. They'll have to ensure the laws are enforced. They'll have to pay money to the government in the form of taxes so the government has the ability to enforce the laws. They'll have to ensure the laws stay in place because their enemies will seek to have them removed. Regardless of the means it is not going to be a struggle that ends so easily. Making a law isn't some magic bullet that will make this kind of problem go away. Either you're going to be willing to spend some portion of your life fighting the problem or you're not.

If I'm going to spend that portion of my life fighting a problem, I'm going to insist on doing it the right way and not just the one that seems easy.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, it isn't. In order for something to be threatening or harassing you actually have to intentionally aim it at someone. Simply baking a cake is not doing that, nor is being willing to bake such a cake for those who want them.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Irrelevant. Human rights shouldn't be a function of history.

[John Dibble]

But I'll be more blunt. Why didn't anyone else, beside, you know, the Jews themselves, react to this? How could this guy run this bakery with no one but the Jews minding it?

I don't have enough information to answer that question. It's unknown to me for how long he had these cakes in his catalog, how many people had viewed the catalog, who had viewed the catalog, etc. His bakery is in a village, so I don't assume there's a big population. Maybe the village is full of Nazis and they like it. Maybe others thought the cakes were in jest. Perhaps the people in the village just aren't very observant. Perhaps they have the similar views on free speech and don't think a cake is something to get upset enough about to raise a fuss. Or perhaps a non-Jew saw it and reported it to the Jewish group, which means that non-Jews do mind. Again, lots of possibilities, but not enough information to draw a conclusion.

Apparently the bolded one may be it. (not sure if it was a non-Jew though)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iljDxZ9bT3FXbNwk1ShXjDd9ykvw?docId=CNG.923b2cd5041443c093c66218d623c411.811

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Also people not noticing might have had to do with this:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[John Dibble]

This thread is further proof that Libertarianism is a horrid joke.

Why? Because we think punishing someone for making an offensive cake isn't justified?

[John Dibble]

So the Nazi Party is still in power in Germany?

No. But there are still those who espouse the ideology regardless of any bans on doing so.