Illegal Aliens and Citizenship
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  Illegal Aliens and Citizenship
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Poll
Question: Do you support this amendment?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
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Total Voters: 27

Author Topic: Illegal Aliens and Citizenship  (Read 6361 times)
A18
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« on: December 05, 2004, 02:24:04 AM »
« edited: December 05, 2004, 02:28:14 AM by Philip »

Under the fourteenth amendment, anyone born in the United States is a citizen. This amendment, if passed, will revoke automatic citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants born after the amendment is ratified.

Is this a good idea, or no?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.J.RES.44:

SECTION 1. No person born in the United States after the date of the ratification of this article shall be a citizen of the United States, or of any State, on account of birth in the United States unless the mother or father of the person is a citizen of the United States, or is lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States, at the time of the birth.

SECTION 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
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A18
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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2004, 10:40:53 AM »

I'm surprised to see so many "no" answers. Is there any particular reason that the children of illegal aliens should be U.S. citizens?
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Lunar
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2004, 12:52:10 PM »

I'm surprised to see so many "no" answers. Is there any particular reason that the children of illegal aliens should be U.S. citizens?

umm..Deporting children is morally corrupt? Besides, they have no "home" for you to deport them to.
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A18
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2004, 02:14:16 PM »

They'd be deported with their parents, of course.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2004, 03:25:24 PM »

I say yes to it provided we make legal immigration easier.
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Julien
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2004, 04:27:04 PM »

That would be cruel. Germany doesn't allow people born of even legal immigrants there to become citizens, which is worse.
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A18
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2004, 04:58:28 PM »

That would be cruel. Germany doesn't allow people born of even legal immigrants there to become citizens, which is worse.

How is that cruel? People shouldn't be able to come over here illegally and have families with the legal rights of the rest of us.
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Kodratos
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2004, 05:00:15 PM »

This is probably the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
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Julien
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2004, 05:01:32 PM »

That would be cruel. Germany doesn't allow people born of even legal immigrants there to become citizens, which is worse.

How is that cruel? People shouldn't be able to come over here illegally and have families with the legal rights of the rest of us.

You shouldn't punish the child for thier parent's actions.
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A18
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2004, 05:05:29 PM »

It's not about punishing the child. It's about not rewarding outlaws by giving them legal leverage in the United States.

I for one think this amendment should apply retroactively to anyone under the age of 18.
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Lunar
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2004, 05:07:10 PM »

What's this obsession with kicking people out of the country anyway?  Besides, if you want to stop illegal immigration, stop them from coming in.
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Kodratos
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2004, 05:08:41 PM »

What's this obsession with kicking people out of the country anyway? 

It's racism thinly veiled in the mask of "security".
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A18
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2004, 05:35:01 PM »

Racism => throwing people out of the country because of their race.

Legalism => throwing people out of the country because they're not here legally.
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Kodratos
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2004, 05:40:15 PM »

Racism => throwing people out of the country because of their race.

Legalism => throwing people out of the country because they're not here legally.

You know as well as I do that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are Mexican. It was people like you that put the "No Dogs or Irish" signs up in New York in the eighteen-hundreds.
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A18
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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2004, 05:42:00 PM »

So the reason we're not supposed to throw them out is because they happen to be Mexican?
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John Dibble
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2004, 05:48:19 PM »

Phillip probably doesn't have a problem with legal Mexican immigrants - it's the ones who do not respect the laws of our lands and come here without our permission that he has a problem with, and that applies to any race I would imagine. I have the same problem - if you aren't fleeing a dictator like Castro, in which case you are more of a refugee than an immigrant, you are practically an invader, someone who has no respect for the sovereign borders of our nation.

I do believe immigration should be made easier, but if you want to live here you have to prove you have respect for the law.
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Lunar
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« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2004, 07:08:22 PM »
« Edited: December 05, 2004, 07:10:01 PM by Lunar »

Racism => throwing people out of the country because of their race.

Legalism => throwing people out of the country because they're not here legally.

But Kodratos was arguing that the obsession with this legalism comes from racist motives.

I don't agree completely, but I think anti-immigration does often become a façade to mask and legitimize racist goals.  I think the same thing about the state's rights movement in the 60's.

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I think it's wrong to equate an illegal immigrant as an "invade."  There is a difference between someone who wants to pillage and rape your villages and someone who wants to do crappy jobs that no one else wants to do in order to fulfill their own "American dreams" of a better life.  It's not at the expense of everyone else.  Sure, they "take our jobs," by perhaps working at Walmart, but they also create them since they buy TVs and clothes just like everyone else.

I think skilled immigration should be unlimited and advocate greatly increasing unskilled as well.  It has to be somewhat gradual, otherwise it'll put strains on governmental services and the economy.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2004, 07:18:07 PM »

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I think it's wrong to equate an illegal immigrant as an "invade."  There is a difference between someone who wants to pillage and rape your villages and someone who wants to do crappy jobs that no one else wants to do in order to fulfill their own "American dreams" of a better life.  It's not at the expense of everyone else.  Sure, they "take our jobs," by perhaps working at Walmart, but they also create them since they buy TVs and clothes just like everyone else.

I think skilled immigration should be unlimited and advocate greatly increasing unskilled as well.  It has to be somewhat gradual, otherwise it'll put strains on governmental services and the economy.

As I said, immigration should be easier. I also don't think they 'take our jobs', they instead probably generate jobs, and they take the ones people born here don't want. I think having people come here is good overall, as it provides cheap labor that helps reduce the trade deficit. I do think we shouldn't hand out lots of government benefits to them - they should live just like everyone else. If they want to work, let them in to work, but they better work, otherwise they shouldn't expect help.

However, as I said, I don't like it when people disregard our laws. Certainly, they are not the worst of invaders, but they are invaders - they enter our land without permission. If you wish to live somewhere, you should respect the laws that have been put forth.
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nclib
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2004, 11:28:48 PM »

That would be cruel. Germany doesn't allow people born of even legal immigrants there to become citizens, which is worse.

How is that cruel? People shouldn't be able to come over here illegally and have families with the legal rights of the rest of us.

You shouldn't punish the child for thier parent's actions.

Agreed.
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Lunar
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2004, 01:31:38 AM »


As I said, immigration should be easier. I also don't think they 'take our jobs', they instead probably generate jobs, and they take the ones people born here don't want. I think having people come here is good overall, as it provides cheap labor that helps reduce the trade deficit. I do think we shouldn't hand out lots of government benefits to them - they should live just like everyone else. If they want to work, let them in to work, but they better work, otherwise they shouldn't expect help.

However, as I said, I don't like it when people disregard our laws. Certainly, they are not the worst of invaders, but they are invaders - they enter our land without permission. If you wish to live somewhere, you should respect the laws that have been put forth.

Ok, you and I are mostly on the same page.

You place a bit more emphasis on this violation of sovereignty than I do, but that's about it.
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Redefeatbush04
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2004, 05:26:26 PM »

It's not about punishing the child. It's about not rewarding outlaws by giving them legal leverage in the United States.

I for one think this amendment should apply retroactively to anyone under the age of 18.

How are the children outlaws?
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A18
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2004, 05:43:05 PM »

The parents have legal leverage if they have children here. The kids are outlaws because they're not supposed to be in this country.
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Redefeatbush04
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2004, 06:35:34 PM »

The parents have legal leverage if they have children here. The kids are outlaws because they're not supposed to be in this country.

I believe we have had this conversation before (many times).

None of us are supposed to be in this country!!!! This was not our land!!! Everyones relatives are immigrants!!!! I don't see the benefit of punishing these innocent "outlaws". I certainly see a lot of detriments.
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A18
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2004, 09:35:36 PM »

So what you're saying is:
1. we stole this land
2. let's let them steal it too
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Lunar
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2004, 09:50:34 PM »

So what you're saying is:
1. we stole this land
2. let's let them steal it too

YES
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