Osama bin Laden dead (Official)

[The Dowager Mod]

Hillary has bad allergies and was trying not to cough.

[anvi]

For those who don't read German, the headlines of the article posted above read:

"Bin Laden was shot in cold blood."
New, weighty accusations against U.S. soldiers.

"There was no standoff."
Pictures of the Bloody Victims
U.S. Senator: Bin Laden wanted to grab a weapon.

The article goes on to recount Pakistani charges that no one inside the compound was armed except one of the curriers who fired shots from a "guesthouse."  It claims that there was no 40-minute shootout.  It also recounts U.S. responses to the effect that, when the Seal unit entered the compound, bin Laden was trying to reach for a weapon and the U.S. soldiers decided "to take no risks."  

What I have seen from the German press in the last few days has been quite scathing; they have chastised Merkel for expressing "joy" at bin Laden's death, and argued that bin Laden's burial at sea was in fact not respectful or observant of Islamic burial practices, but was merely done in "revenge."  One article I read even pointed out that Germany was a more Christian nation than the U.S., and the sheer vengefulness shown by the U.S. demonstrates just how different American and German societies are!

Just conveying the stuff in the articles and some of the other things I've seen in German papers recently for those who may be interested.

[Cincinnatus]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/05/eveningnews/main20060229.shtml

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[Middle-aged Europe]

What I have seen from the German press in the last few days has been quite scathing; they have chastised Merkel for expressing "joy" at bin Laden's death,

Wasn't really an accusation brought forward by "the press". It was made by a couple of Catholic CDU politicians. And since it was criticism directed at Merkel and not at America as such, so I don't see where anti-Americanism enters into it here. Truth be told, Merkel's statement sounded in fact kind of weird and certainly exceeded Obama's own remarks on events.

and argued that bin Laden's burial at sea was in fact not respectful or observant of Islamic burial practices, but was merely done in "revenge."

Well, it was neither done in revenge (haven't seen such an accusation myself, where its is from?), nor did if fully respect Islamic burial practices. Gving him a burial within 24 hours did respect Islamic practices, not burrying him in the ground didn't. So, the truth lies somewhwere in the middle here.

[anvi]

Franzl,
I completely agree.

[anvi]

Jonathan,

This is the piece I primarily had in mind in my previous post.

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,760151,00.html

[anvi]

Just as an aside, I don't really get too worked up that bin Laden was not buried according to strict observance of Muslim practices.  He may have recited the shahada, but he and his organization intentionally targeted unarmed civilians and killed many Muslims in their numerous attacks.  I certainly don't mean to be insensitive to Islamic traditions, and his actions don't excuse things that anyone else does by any means.  But that guy was a mass-murderer, and, to my mind, he didn't deserve the honor in the first place. 

[Joe Republic]

Perhaps it's fair to say that modern day Germany is... how shall I put it?  Compensating?

[anvi]

I don't want to be too hard on the Germans.  Sometimes, I find their complaints about the U.S. legit.  I lived there for the first time in the mid-'90's, and there was lots of criticism of the U.S. in the country even then, and certainly during the Cold War.  But the criticism always came mixed with some gratitude on the part of older generations and with great gravitation toward American pop culture among the younger.  

I've always found that, when living in the U.S., I am often quite critical of our politics and society and so forth, but when I live overseas, when I see the country is not being understood, I feel compelled to defend it.  I think it's a common sentiment among anyone who transitions to another country, because I've had lots of friends from other countries now living in the U.S. say they experience the same thing.

In the end, it's really hard for people to understand one another.  I think that's where a lot of human conflicts come from in the first place.  Anyway, despite the stuff written in these articles, I miss Germany often; I look forward to a chance to visit there again.

[anvi]

Franzl,
Yes, I only lived in Germany for two years, and not all at once, but I feel much as you to.  Actually, my parents were first generation Americans and they spoke German at home when growing up, and had to go to a North Dakota rural school to learn English.  So, when I first went to Germany in '94, I was pretty fluent in the language, had grown up eating German food my mom made, still had relatives in Germany ect. ect., so I fully expected to meld in well with the culture...and found, of course, that I often didn't.  It turns out that one's upbringing, the culture one grows up in, is  very formative.  But at the same time, while I often didn't agree with the German perspective, there were many things I found I did agree with, and I really learned a very, very great deal when there.  It is a strange experience living in another country, but I find it also helped me grow in many ways I wouldn't have otherwise, so I'm most grateful I had the chance.

It's also important to remember that hardly all Germans will agree with everything written in these pieces.  No matter where one lives, people disagree, and that's perfectly fine, it's what democracy is about.

So, in the meantime Franzl, you're living in a wonderful country. 
So, Prost!

[Torie]

My neighbor thinks Osama's corpse is stuffed in a freezer locker somewhere, and the "funeral" was a sham, with a dummy under the textiles that were used when it was dumped allegedly in Davy Jones' locker. That is all.

[anvi]

Davy Jones beat me to it again.  Damnit. 

[memphis]

My neighbor thinks Osama's corpse is stuffed in a freezer locker somewhere, and the "funeral" was a sham, with a dummy under the textiles that were used when it was dumped allegedly in Davy Jones' locker. That is all.

Any particular reason he thinks this? The CIA gonna study his brain to discern what makes somebody such an evil bastard?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Hillary has bad allergies and was trying not to cough.

I heard her say that today.  Personally, I don't care--I have confidence in her as our Secretary of State.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Jonathan,

This is the piece I primarily had in mind in my previous post.

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,760151,00.html

Not surprising that it's Spiegel, actually. Comforting actually that it is from them.

Its polemics aside, I actually think that this SPIEGEL article makes some legitimate points. Nothing particularly "outragous" here.

Doesn't differ much from Helmut Schmidt's remarks on Beckmann this week regarding his "mixed feelings" on Bin Laden's death... and this guy actually has first-hand experience when it comes to ordering the killing of Muslim terrorists, so to speak. The more his argument carried weight, I guess. Footage of Angela Merkel's "anouncement of joy" was also used as the opener on Harald Schmidt yesterday. When something starts to get satirized you know that there's something inherently wrong about it.

I agree however that the kind of reporting on that sensationalist Austrian news site Tender Branson poster earlier here is inappropriate and tasteless. "New allegations against U.S. soldiers" is also an "odd" way to put it since I don't remember hearing any real allegations against the SEAL team so far.

[Tender Branson]

Jonathan,

This is the piece I primarily had in mind in my previous post.

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,760151,00.html

Not surprising that it's Spiegel, actually. Comforting actually that it is from them.

Its polemics aside, I actually think that this SPIEGEL article makes some legitimate points. Nothing particularly "outragous" here.

Doesn't differ much from Helmut Schmidt's remarks on Beckmann this week regarding his "mixed feelings" on Bin Laden's death... and this guy actually has first-hand experience when it comes to ordering the killing of Muslim terrorists, so to speak. The more his argument carried weight, I guess. Footage of Angela Merkel's "anouncement of joy" was also used as the opener on Harald Schmidt yesterday. When something starts to get satirized you know that there's something inherently wrong about it.

I agree however that the kind of reporting on that sensationalist Austrian news site Tender Branson posted earlier here is inappropriate and tasteless. "New allegations against U.S. soldiers" is also an "odd" way to put it since I don't remember hearing any real allegations against the SEAL team so far.

The article by "News" merely quoted 2 Pakistani security officials who went into the house after the raid and talked with the survivors.

Basically we'll never know what really happened in this house, you can either believe the American story that Bin Laden and his bodyguards/family members made moves to grab a gun and therefore threatened the SEALS and therefore they killed him like in a police operation, or you can believe the story of the Pakistani security guys who talked with the survivors from inside the house who said that the Bin Ladens were asleep and had no time to defend themselves when the American Liquidation Commando entered the building within a few seconds and eradicated them without making any moves to capture them, but just kill them out of revenge.

[Middle-aged Europe]

^^

You gotta admit, it's a "news" site which dedicates a whole section to tittie pics. In a way, their article on the Bin Laden killing is just another kind of porn.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I don't quite understand the Europeans' focus on the word "revenge". It seems perfectly logical that a terrorist mastermind would be a military target for several reasons, not least to prevent him for participating in future terrorist activities. Based on what was said about plans to target American rail, it seems like killing him serves a legitimate strategical purpose as well.

And of course that the "revenge" you speak of is nothing more than a feel-good European way of implying that they're something better. Oh no, we don't seek revenge in Europe! Any punishment, whether it's a fine or jail term or execution can be interpreted as "revenge".

So yeah, let's all feel sorry for the poor unarmed terrorist Bin Laden that was so coldheartedly and brutally killed by the American Liquidation Commando.

Then again, saying that Bin Laden didn't deserve a fair trial because he was "sufficiently evil" to just kill him right away certainly opens up a can of worms. Even Hermann Göring was entitled to a trial and legal representation. And he certainly killed a whole lot more people than Bin Laden.

However, you could make the case that cirumstances didn't allow to capture Bin Laden and transport him out of the country without endangering the well-being of the military personnel involved in the operation or the success of the operation as such. Of course, we also don't have sufficient information to make such a judgement.

If "revenge" was a motive for the operation it's certainly worthy of criticism, since it would mean that the decision to approve military action was based on emotion. On the other hand, most "revenge" criticism are directed at "inappropriate" public reactions regarding the outcome of the operation than the operation itself.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Israelis took Eichmann alive.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Uh, regarding the German justice system and the question of murderers and/or terrorists:

Just because it's theoretically possible to release a murderer after 15 years, doesn't mean there's an automatism to do so. In fact, most murderers aren't released after 15 years. I think that's a common mistake.

For instance, RAF terrorist Christian Klar was pardoned after 26 years, while his "comrade" Birgit Hogefeld is still in prison today. Osama Bin Laden would have been 80 after 26 years in prison.

[anvi]

Jonathan,

This is the piece I primarily had in mind in my previous post.

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,760151,00.html

Not surprising that it's Spiegel, actually. Comforting actually that it is from them.

Its polemics aside, I actually think that this SPIEGEL article makes some legitimate points. Nothing particularly "outragous" here.

There were a couple of paragraphs in the Speigel piece, which I agree made a few thoughtful points, that I nonetheless found rather self-righteous and self-serving, as well as based on lots of assumptions of fact, and with a little nab at Judaism thrown in.  The implications of the argument, it seems to me, are that the U.S. really has no business thinking of itself as a "Christian civilization" and that it is the state ideology and the state enshrinement of capital punishment that motivated the overblown demonstrations in the streets.  As far as the critique of what went on in the streets, well, I do think there is room for criticism there, but the same criticism could be leveled against celebrations of Israeli and American civilian deaths in some places. But that's just my impression, you all are welcome judge for yourselves.

"Viel bildet sich der christlich geprägte Westen ein auf seine zivilisatorische Überlegenheit den islamischen Ländern gegenüber. Doch das, was gerade in den USA geschieht, vermittelt einen anderen Eindruck. Wenn US-Amerikaner den Tod Bin Ladens mit Tänzen und Sprechchören feiern, graust es den hiesigen Betrachter - der Jubel wirkt befremdlich, weil er uns zeigt, dass die US-Gesellschaft uns fremder ist, als es scheinen mag.  'In God we trust' steht auf jeder US-Dollar-Note, doch dieser Gott ist nicht der verzeihende, neutestamentarische Gott - sondern der rachsüchtige aus dem Alten Testament. Hierzulande gilt Resozialisierung als Ziel von staatlicher Strafe - in den USA ist es die Vergeltung, bis hin zur Todesstrafe.    Dass die Todesstrafe, wie bei Bin Laden, auch ohne Prozess verhängt werden darf, wenn nur das Verbrechen und der Zorn darüber groß genug sind, und dass ihr Vollzug euphorisch gefeiert wird, belegt, wie tief die "Auge um Auge"-Ideologie in der US-amerikanischen Gesellschaft verwurzelt ist. Die Rachsucht mag mächtig sein - moralisch überlegen ist sie nicht.

"The Christian West bases a great deal on the sefl-conceit that it is superior as a civilization to Islamic countries.  However, what is happening in the U.S. now leaves a different impression.  When American citizens celebrate the death of bin Laden with dancing and chanting, it fills the local onlooker with dread--the jubilation estranges, because it shows us that American society is more distant from us than it may appear.  'In God We Trust" is on every U.S. dollar, but this is not the forgiving God of the New Testament, but rather the vengeful God of the Old Testament.  In this country, re-socialization is the aim of government punishment--in the U.S., (the aim) is retribution, all the way up to capital punishment.  Capital punishment, particularly when it is accompanied by no (legal) process as in the case of bin Laden, and when criminality and rage suffice to invoke it, and when in its implementation it is euphorically celebrated, belies how deeply the "eye for an eye" ideology is rooted in American society.  The quest for revenge may be powerful, but it is not morally estimable."

 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Franzl

your observations are correct.  which is why this war has long been lost.  we are too politically correct to fight a war in manner which will bring victory. 

the war strategy is simply this:  PC

heck, we're to PC to even refer to it as a "war"

it's mindnumbing stupidity

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

"The Christian West bases a great deal on the sefl-conceit that it is superior as a civilization to Islamic countries.  However, what is happening in the U.S. now leaves a different impression.  When American citizens celebrate the death of bin Laden with dancing and chanting, it fills the local onlooker with dread--the jubilation estranges, because it shows us that American society is more distant from us than it may appear.  'In God We Trust" is on every U.S. dollar, but this is not the forgiving God of the New Testament, but rather the vengeful God of the Old Testament.  In this country, re-socialization is the aim of government punishment--in the U.S., (the aim) is retribution, all the way up to capital punishment.  Capital punishment, particularly when it is accompanied by no (legal) process as in the case of bin Laden, and when criminality and rage suffice to invoke it, and when in its implementation it is euphorically celebrated, belies how deeply the "eye for an eye" ideology is rooted in American society.   The quest for revenge may be powerful, but it is not morally estimable."

yo, Osama died on his chosen battlefield and from his command center.  the ideas behind that article are actually more dangerous to freedom (because it is advocating defeat) than Osama ever was

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Since they've uncovered plots regarding trains can we assume the slimy scumbags of the TSA will quit touching everyone's junk (except Torie's, he likes it)?   Neh.

[Badger]

 One article I read even pointed out that Germany was a more Christian nation than the U.S., and the sheer vengefulness shown by the U.S. demonstrates just how different American and German societies are!

Yes, we can learn so much from Germany's example in not letting previous military strikes against one's country inspire vengeful overreaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles#Historical_assessments

<ahem>