Egypt opens its border with Palestine, breaking the siege of Gaza

[danny]

Good, so you agree that Israel grants rights to Arabs because it's a democracy that grants rights to all its citizens because that is the kind of country it is and not because of any international pressure.

No country, democratic or otherwise, European 'liberal' or Arabian 'socialist', simply 'grants' 'rights' from the goodness of its collective heart. Rights are fought for every day; they are won from the struggle for existence within society.

Israel doesn't grant rights at all. Israel likes to pump raw sewage into Palestinian settlements. Don't believe me? Watch the video.

Of course country's grant rights to people, they do it all the time. You seem to have this conspiratorial view that politicians or "people in power" all over the world are necessarily a group of evil people trying to keep the general population from obtaining rights and if people do get rights it's only because the politicians were somehow forced to.

Your second "argument" was just a way of changing the subject from the rights Arab Israelis have, to some case of something that happened in some settlement. If like you say "Israel doesn't grant rights at all" then Arabs wouldn't be allowed to vote or be elected, go to Universities express their opinion freely etc. but they are.

[Liberté]

Of course country's grant rights to people, they do it all the time. You seem to have this conspiratorial view that politicians or "people in power" all over the world are necessarily a group of evil people trying to keep the general population from obtaining rights and if people do get rights it's only because the politicians were somehow forced to.

"Conspiratorial" view? No. A view predicated upon institutional inertia and in-built conservatism in every State on the planet which resists demands for greater social egalitarianism in society? Yes, certainly.

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I didn't change any subject. The Palestinians, apparently, do not possess the right in Israel not to have raw sh**t pumped into the fields where they farm.

[Lief 🗽]

Wow, I wonder if whites in apartheid South Africa also thought that their country was a democracy that protected the rights of all its citizens.

[Insula Dei]

I'm not sure if you knew this, but Gaddafi was "Israel's enemy", not the rebels now fighting against him (presumably that's what you're referring to; it's very difficult for me to follow whatever line of 'reason' you're using). Frankly, I think we could get a better deal selling a few tanks to the Palestinians to even up the score. I'm not saying we should, but it beats sticking our necks out for a country that only exists because of the United Nations.

I know I'm bumping something from a couple of pages ago but I was reading through this thread and I laughed when I got to this point because it's just so far from the truth. Israel exists because it won a war for its independence, not because of any UN resolution that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Well strictly speaking it exists because its founders thought it might be a good idea to just give the international community the finger. Not meaning to sound judgmental here.

[Insula Dei]

Also I'm feeling pretty sure that in the past 5 pages jmfcst has still failed to establish a concincing cause for MB involvement in arms deliveries to Hamas. He most certainly will have spewed a lot of retarded Bible speak. (Really, having actually read some of his Bibe posts it seems those are perhaps his lowest quality ones, as if he actually doesn't get even relatively simple layers of the text. I'm not speaking 'X is actually a metaphor' here, I'm talking just basically not getting the sense of the text when it should be read as anything but the most literal interpretation possible of the words.)

[Insula Dei]

Oh and Danny, Israel's real enemy is its own public opinion. If Israel isn't able to make major concessions and come to a durable form of peace with its neighbours, the place is headed for another Shoah the moment its neighbours grow too strong and the US grows too weak, which will happen at a certain point.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Also I'm feeling pretty sure that in the past 5 pages jmfcst has still failed to establish a concincing cause for MB involvement in arms deliveries to Hamas. He most certainly will have spewed a lot of retarded Bible speak. (Really, having actually read some of his Bibe posts it seems those are perhaps his lowest quality ones, as if he actually doesn't get even relatively simple layers of the text. I'm not speaking 'X is actually a metaphor' here, I'm talking just basically not getting the sense of the text when it should be read as anything but the most literal interpretation possible of the words.)

1) i was hoping you would just google it and same me the time of educating you...2) if I taken any verses out of context, please speak name them along with the correct context

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What is it about the internet and any threads dealing with this particular subject?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Your sources for Hamas being armed by the Egyptian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Didn't you know? Iraq's Baath Party was the Iraqi branch of al-Qaeda.

You fool! Saddam was a puppet of the Iranian regime. Oh wait,..., Iran must be ruled by Al Qaeda then,... It all makes sense now!

Funny that you two would use the Muslim Brotherhood and al-Qaeda together in a joke involving ties between the two groups.  When, in reality, it’s no joke at all.

Don’t you know that al-Qaeda (as well as Hamas) was born out of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and that MB members helped al-Qaeda pull off 9/11?  This was discussed back in 2006 on this forum (well before the Arab Spring) when the forum, and Dems and Reps in Congress, were unanimous in it's critique of the MB...that is, before posters like you started to embrace them as a hope for democracy:

Well, somehow we got off on a bad foot.

Pipeline:

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http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=700#a0701oneillrails


Most of what I said about Mousasaou:

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http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=800#a082302fisa

 

now, Obama is about to embrace the MB....how times have changed!!!

[ag]

What about the life of Arab Israelis have you heard? because while I'm sure it isn't perfect, I don't think there is anything terrible about it.

Nothing more terrible than I myself experienced as a Jew in the Soviet Union, I'd admit. It's just that I am impressed at how good the Israelis are at being the Russians. So good in fact, that you've made the Jews of your own Arabs ))

[Sbane]

I love how people think Muslims have everything hunky dory within Israel, especially since it's officially a Jewish state. Israel can compare favorably only against other middle  easten nations. It basically follows the same sort of religious discrimination seen in it's neighboring countries, though I am sure they are nice about it.

[John Dibble]

danny, certain people hate Israel simply because it is God's chosen nation.

Ok, I've stayed out of this thread because it would be an exercise in futility to argue much about it with you one way or another, but this statement is absurd. Nobody who hates Israel believes that it's God's chosen nation. Those who believe that are almost always pro-Israel.

Allow me to present a challenge to you if you actually believe this - show me one of these "certain people" who hate Israel saying that they acknowledge that Israel is God's chosen nation. I'd bet money you can't find a one.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

danny, certain people hate Israel simply because it is God's chosen nation.

Ok, I've stayed out of this thread because it would be an exercise in futility to argue much about it with you one way or another, but this statement is absurd. Nobody who hates Israel believes that it's God's chosen nation. Those who believe that are almost always pro-Israel.

Allow me to present a challenge to you if you actually believe this - show me one of these "certain people" who hate Israel saying that they acknowledge that Israel is God's chosen nation. I'd bet money you can't find a one.

No, you simply misinterpreted my statement

Example: how many of those who crucified Christ believed beforehand that he was the Son of God?  You don’t have to knowingly oppose God to be a pawn of a demonic scheme against God. What is going on on earth is simply a projection of the battle raging in Heaven.

The reason the Jews are the most hatred group on the earth is the fact that God loves them, hence the demonic scheme to destroy them.  Satan knows if he can destroy the Jews, he can thwart prophecy.   That's why the worst scums on this earth are linked to anti-Semitism

[Sbane]

danny, certain people hate Israel simply because it is God's chosen nation.

Ok, I've stayed out of this thread because it would be an exercise in futility to argue much about it with you one way or another, but this statement is absurd. Nobody who hates Israel believes that it's God's chosen nation. Those who believe that are almost always pro-Israel.

Allow me to present a challenge to you if you actually believe this - show me one of these "certain people" who hate Israel saying that they acknowledge that Israel is God's chosen nation. I'd bet money you can't find a one.

No, you simply misinterpreted my statement

Example: how many of those who crucified Christ believed beforehand that he was the Son of God?  You don’t have to knowingly oppose God to be a pawn of a demonic scheme against God. What is going on on earth is simply a projection of the battle raging in Heaven.

The reason the Jews are the most hatred group on the earth is the fact that God loves them, hence the demonic scheme to destroy them.  Satan knows if he can destroy the Jews, he can thwart prophecy.   That's why the worst scums on this earth are linked to anti-Semitism

Why is Israel always equal to Jews? It's as if there aren't any Jews all around the world cringing at Israel's more cavalier actions.

[afleitch]

I'd remind all posters to watch their tone which has been a bit heated over the past few pages. This is a controversial topic but I would be grateful if people could refrain from hyperbole and keep things civil. Also posting a stream of bible quotes will be regarded as spam. They are not relevant in this or any other International General Discussion topic.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I'd remind all posters to watch their tone which has been a bit heated over the past few pages. This is a controversial topic but I would be grateful if people could refrain from hyperbole and keep things civil. Also posting a stream of bible quotes will be regarded as spam. They are not relevant in this or any other International General Discussion topic.

speaking of tyrants....this discussion has been EXTREMELY civil, at least up to this point.  Posters have asked how my religious views intertwine into my viewpoint of Israel and I have given both religious and secular arguments in support of Israel.  And if you havent noticed, the ME conflict does involve religion, so any discussion of the ME conflict without acknowledging the religious aspect would be quite naive.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Why is Israel always equal to Jews? It's as if there aren't any Jews all around the world cringing at Israel's more cavalier actions.

did Hitler care about the individual politics of the Jews he killed?  Was not Anne Frank's dad a patriot of Germany?  But, yes, hatred of Jews does come in many flavors.

[danny]

Oh and Danny, Israel's real enemy is its own public opinion. If Israel isn't able to make major concessions and come to a durable form of peace with its neighbours, the place is headed for another Shoah the moment its neighbours grow too strong and the US grows too weak, which will happen at a certain point.

No, Israel's real enemy is people who want to get rid of it. If Israel isn't powerful enough to stop these enemy's that is what could cause another holocaust, and if that were the case then concessions and peace agreements would be useless, actually worse than useless as concessions  make those enemy's stronger.

[Sbane]

Why is Israel always equal to Jews? It's as if there aren't any Jews all around the world cringing at Israel's more cavalier actions.

did Hitler care about the individual politics of the Jews he killed?  Was not Anne Frank's dad a patriot of Germany?  But, yes, hatred of Jews does come in many flavors.

And here comes Hitler.....

What I was trying to say is that just because someone doesn't support Israel doesn't mean they don't like Jews. Israel is not equal to Jews. There are plenty of Jews in this world who don't approve of Israel's actions.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Respectfully, Andrew, the discourse here is as hyperbolic as the discourse in the real world.....the whole issue is filled with hyperbole (and Bible/Quran quoting) .....it won't go away. 

[Iosif]

Your sources for Hamas being armed by the Egyptian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood?

The bible!!!

I wish people would stop taking jm seriously, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Oh and Danny, Israel's real enemy is its own public opinion. If Israel isn't able to make major concessions and come to a durable form of peace with its neighbours, the place is headed for another Shoah the moment its neighbours grow too strong and the US grows too weak, which will happen at a certain point.

No, Israel's real enemy is people who want to get rid of it. If Israel isn't powerful enough to stop these enemy's that is what could cause another holocaust, and if that were the case then concessions and peace agreements would be useless, actually worse than useless as concessions  make those enemy's stronger.

From a secular POV, how could their not be another holocaust given the spread of WMD among the Muslims along with the Muslim denial of the holocaust?  Sadly, it’s only a matter of time.

From my POV, I can see two more holocausts.  The first one involves Tel Aviv (the Muslims probably wont hit Jerusalem), destroying the mostly secular population of Jews, with Israel returning fire and slaughtering at least Gaza and Syria, and Israel gains complete control of Jerusalem and pushes out the Muslims as Israel lunges to the religious right.  This new holocaust brings a new wave of Jews to Israel (predominately from America this time) to help repopulate Israel….then the next holocaust will be much worse and will be centered on Jerusalem.

[Sbane]

Your sources for Hamas being armed by the Egyptian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood?

I wish people would stop taking jm seriously, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

Unfortunately, people like jmf have an undue influence over the foreign policy of the US, and they take along the rest of America for a ride by scaring them of Muslims. When will America wake up to their bullsh**t? I don't know.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Your sources for Hamas being armed by the Egyptian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood?

I wish people would stop taking jm seriously, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

Unfortunately, people like jmf have an undue influence over the foreign policy of the US, and they take along the rest of America for a ride by scaring them of Muslims. When will America wake up to their bullsh**t? I don't know.

how hard is it to google: Muslim Brotherhood Hamas tunnels?


here, let me help you

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS424US424&q=muslim+brotherhood+hamas+tunnels&safe=active

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Here is a sample, I’ve find more for you later, but I’m in between meetings:

Egypt arrests 2 members of MB smuggling arms to Hamas:
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=132763

Hamas supply route leads through Egypt
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,742186,00.html

Really is hard to believe that 4 years ago, this forum was united in its stand against the MB.  But, today, there is a growing segment of posters attempting to cover up MB activities.  Why is that?