Egypt opens its border with Palestine, breaking the siege of Gaza

[dead0man]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

[Liberté]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

1) google the armed forces of the countries of the ME.  see all those American planes and tanks in the hands of the Muslims?  that's what I was referring to when I said we should stop arming Israel's enemies, then maybe we wouldnt need to aid Israel at all.

So every Arab-majority country in the Middle East is an enemy of Israel?

(nearly) every Muslim populous is.  we are short-sighted and never see the possibility that there could be Muslim revolutions in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt...it's only the dictators-kings that have stiffled the will of the Muslim street to destroy Israel...and that these very same planes and tanks could be used by jihadists.

---

And we shouldn't make business deals advantageous to our interests with them because of that? We should distort the market, harm international trade, and all for Israel.
Okay then...

seriously, dude, you need to stop trying to support your weak argument by putting words into another person's mouth.

do a search on my posts regarding the preaching of freedom of religion and who we dont have to choose between two bad choices when we could instead choose to preach the acceptance of certain unalienable rights was a prerequisite of our support....I dont feel like explaining it all over again to a new crowd

[dead0man]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

So you're saying we should expect more terrorism because of this move?

[Insula Dei]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

So you're saying we should expect more terrorism because of this move?

He's saying we should expect more violence because of the existence of the blockade in the first place.

[Liberté]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

So you're saying we should expect more terrorism because of this move?

I'm saying it's certainly a natural reaction to having an entire population cut off from access to the international market. I'm not a liberal; I won't deny it. What I will deny, and adamantly, and constantly, is that it's much of a concern for the United States, or that it's wholly unwarranted. I'd probably take up a rocket launcher myself if I were in the same situation, no matter how morally repugnant that may seem to those of us not in it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

maybe they should have thought about that when both Abbas and Arafat have rejected deals that shared Jerusalem and gave Israel only three percent of the West Bank in return of recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity.

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1967 they were not satisified with the '67 lines.  

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1948 they were not satisified with the '48 lines.  

War has consequences, especially when lose all of them in the name of refusing Israel the right to exist.  LOL!

[Liberté]

maybe they should have thought about that when both Abbas and Arafat have rejected deals that shared Jerusalem and gave Israel only three percent of the West Bank in return of recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity.

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1967 they were not satisified with the '67 lines.  

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1948 they were not satisified with the '48 lines.

You say "they". Who are "they"? The Palestinian people in the conglomerate? No such thing exists. The individuals, the youth of Palestine, who are going out and fighting and dying were not present at Camp David, nor there at the partitioning. I refuse to morally condemn an individual for something their ancestors or their 'representatives' did.

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I do not understand what this sentence is intended to convey.

[Sbane]

War has consequences, especially when lose all of them in the name of refusing Israel the right to exist.  LOL!

I wonder if you will say the same thing if Egypt or some other Arab nation defeats Israel.

[dead0man]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

So you're saying we should expect more terrorism because of this move?

I'm saying it's certainly a natural reaction to having an entire population cut off from access to the international market. I'm not a liberal; I won't deny it. What I will deny, and adamantly, and constantly, is that it's much of a concern for the United States, or that it's wholly unwarranted. I'd probably take up a rocket launcher myself if I were in the same situation, no matter how morally repugnant that may seem to those of us not in it.

Aint nothing wrong with picking up a rocket launcher to "fight the good fight", but there is a lot wrong with firing that rocket from a civilian area and in the direction of other civilians.  I know some of you just hate the ....errrr...."Israel" so much that terrorism against them doesn't seem like such a bad idea, but it is a bad idea.  Especially if you want peace in the area some day.

[Liberté]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

So you're saying we should expect more terrorism because of this move?

I'm saying it's certainly a natural reaction to having an entire population cut off from access to the international market. I'm not a liberal; I won't deny it. What I will deny, and adamantly, and constantly, is that it's much of a concern for the United States, or that it's wholly unwarranted. I'd probably take up a rocket launcher myself if I were in the same situation, no matter how morally repugnant that may seem to those of us not in it.

Aint nothing wrong with picking up a rocket launcher to "fight the good fight", but there is a lot wrong with firing that rocket from a civilian area and in the direction of other civilians.  I know some of you just hate the ....errrr...."Israel" so much that terrorism against them doesn't seem like such a bad idea, but it is a bad idea.  Especially if you want peace in the area some day.

Strategically, it's not any different from the doctrine of total war the United States has adopted in every major conflict it fought in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries - you target the 'productive' sectors of the enemy's economy in the hopes to shatter both their morale and their capacity to produce matériel. In the case of Israel, since every able-bodied civilian is drafted, I find the firebombing of Dresden about equivalent to a mortar attack against a civilian marketplace.

[dead0man]

wow

[Sbane]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

I wouldn't expect them to, given the conditions they were forced to live in for four years. And I'm not lionizing the Palestinians, but their anger is certainly understandable. And, no, I don't at all believe they brought it all on themselves.

So you're saying we should expect more terrorism because of this move?

I'm saying it's certainly a natural reaction to having an entire population cut off from access to the international market. I'm not a liberal; I won't deny it. What I will deny, and adamantly, and constantly, is that it's much of a concern for the United States, or that it's wholly unwarranted. I'd probably take up a rocket launcher myself if I were in the same situation, no matter how morally repugnant that may seem to those of us not in it.

I know some of you just hate the ....errrr...."Israel" so much that terrorism against them doesn't seem like such a bad idea, but it is a bad idea.  

Ah the old anti-semitic card eh?

Well obviously you don't like the Palestinians because their skin is dirty and brown.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

maybe they should have thought about that when both Abbas and Arafat have rejected deals that shared Jerusalem and gave Israel only three percent of the West Bank in return of recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity.

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1967 they were not satisified with the '67 lines.  

And maybe they should have though about that when in 1948 they were not satisified with the '48 lines.

You say "they". Who are "they"? The Palestinian people in the conglomerate? No such thing exists. The individuals, the youth of Palestine, who are going out and fighting and dying were not present at Camp David, nor there at the partitioning. I refuse to morally condemn an individual for something their ancestors or their 'representatives' did.

who do you think Arafat was afraid of at Camp David:  Clinton, the Israeli PM, or the Muslim street back in the ME?  Arafat wasnt stupid, he knew that if he accepted Israel's right to exist that he would be killed by Muslims.  Which is why Abbas will not publically accept Israel's right to exist.  He'd be signing his own death warrant.

who, exactly, do you think you're fooling?

---

War has consequences, especially when lose all of them in the name of refusing Israel the right to exist.  LOL!

I wonder if you will say the same thing if Egypt or some other Arab nation defeats Israel.

well, looks like we're going to get a chance to see if Egypt has was it takes in the coming years.

[Liberté]

wow

It might be 'morally repugnant', but it's about the closest to the real moral truth of the situation as anyone is going to admit. I'm not advocating terrorist attacks; but it's not as if we haven't engaged in them before. If you need help digesting it, picture a suicide bomber as a Stratofortress and the little shops in the market as the great porcelain factories of Dresden.

[Liberté]

who do you think Arafat was afraid of at Camp David:  Clinton, the Israeli PM, or the Muslim street back in the ME?  Arafat wasnt stupid, he knew that if he accepted Israel's right to exist that he would be killed by Muslims.  Which is why Abbas will not publically accept Israel's right to exist.  He'd be signing his own death warrant.

who, exactly, do you think you're fooling?

If Arafat were under danger then of being killed by his own people, the PLO would have been completely purged now that it's been revealed to be a corrupt, self-serving interest group within the Palestinian social structure. But it hasn't. There's a lot of popular outrage against it, but the individual politicians are perfectly safe. You want to paint a picture of the Palestinians as murder-driven brutes which, quite simply, has no correlation to reality.

[Sbane]

War has consequences, especially when lose all of them in the name of refusing Israel the right to exist.  LOL!

I wonder if you will say the same thing if Egypt or some other Arab nation defeats Israel.

well, looks like we're going to get a chance to see if Egypt has was it takes in the coming years.

It would be extremely foolish for the Egyptians to actually go to war with Israel. But it's a possibility. In a Democracy these things happen. Hey, I mean didn't the US support slavery for almost the first 100 years of it's founding? sh**t happens.

[dead0man]

Ah the old anti-semitic card eh?

Well obviously you don't like the Palestinians because their skin is dirty and brown.

Yet here I am, not suggesting people fire rockets randomly at them.  Weird.

wow

It might be 'morally repugnant', but it's about the closest to the real moral truth of the situation as anyone is going to admit. I'm not advocating terrorist attacks; but it's not as if we haven't engaged in them before. If you need help digesting it, picture a suicide bomber as a Stratofortress and the little shops in the market as the great porcelain factories of Dresden.

A.Dresden wasn't as bad as our history books made it out to be. (a better example would be the firebombing of Tokyo.....I'm just glad you didn't use the droppings of the atomic bombs as your example)
B.we realize we've made a mistake with Dresden and (for the most part) try really hard to avoid pointless civilian casualties.
C. there must always be a third thing

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

who do you think Arafat was afraid of at Camp David:  Clinton, the Israeli PM, or the Muslim street back in the ME?  Arafat wasnt stupid, he knew that if he accepted Israel's right to exist that he would be killed by Muslims.  Which is why Abbas will not publically accept Israel's right to exist.  He'd be signing his own death warrant.

who, exactly, do you think you're fooling?

If Arafat were under danger then of being killed by his own people, the PLO would have been completely purged now that it's been revealed to be a corrupt, self-serving interest group within the Palestinian social structure. But it hasn't. There's a lot of popular outrage against it, but the individual politicians are perfectly safe. You want to paint a picture of the Palestinians as murder-driven brutes which, quite simply, has no correlation to reality.

well, if Abbas isnt afraid of the Muslim street, then why doesnt he put out a statement in Arabic stating Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity?

[Liberté]

A.Dresden wasn't as bad as our history books made it out to be. (a better example would be the firebombing of Tokyo.....I'm just glad you didn't use the droppings of the atomic bombs as your example)

Dresden was actually probably worse than our history books make it out to be. I believe the German count has twenty or thirty thousand more casualties than those made by the Army Air Force during the Second World War.

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So will the Palestinians one day. I don't see any reason right now why they ought to convert to enlightened Western post-liberalism. The conditions do not exist for it and will not exist as long as Israel can count on the United States to save the day through handouts. Nations, like people, grow dependent.

[Liberté]

who do you think Arafat was afraid of at Camp David:  Clinton, the Israeli PM, or the Muslim street back in the ME?  Arafat wasnt stupid, he knew that if he accepted Israel's right to exist that he would be killed by Muslims.  Which is why Abbas will not publically accept Israel's right to exist.  He'd be signing his own death warrant.

who, exactly, do you think you're fooling?

If Arafat were under danger then of being killed by his own people, the PLO would have been completely purged now that it's been revealed to be a corrupt, self-serving interest group within the Palestinian social structure. But it hasn't. There's a lot of popular outrage against it, but the individual politicians are perfectly safe. You want to paint a picture of the Palestinians as murder-driven brutes which, quite simply, has no correlation to reality.

well, if Abbas isnt afraid of the Muslim street, then why doesnt he put out a statement in Arabic stating Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity?

Why would he? He's gotten fat manipulating the passions and prejudices of both sides, just as Arafat did. These are political leaders, after all. Just as the GOP has never ended legalized abortion (and almost certainly never will as long as it remains a verified vote-getter), there's no incentive for him or the PLO or any member of the Palestinian establishment to recognize Israel as long as they can use it to their own advantage. And if your retort is "well, the Palestinians ought to get better leaders", then good luck, as that does nothing to remove the institutional pressure not to recognize Israel for one's own gain.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

well, if Abbas isnt afraid of the Muslim street, then why doesnt he put out a statement in Arabic stating Israel's right to exist as a Jewish entity?

Why would he? He's gotten fat manipulating the passions and prejudices of both sides, just as Arafat did. These are political leaders, after all....there's no incentive for him or the PLO or any member of the Palestinian establishment to recognize Israel as long as they can use it to their own advantage. And if your retort is "well, the Palestinians ought to get better leaders", then good luck, as that does nothing to remove the institutional pressure not to recognize Israel for one's own gain.

then put the PA aside...do you think the majority of Palestinians believe Israel has a right to exist?!  heck, even a majority of Arab-Israelis dont believe that:

"It said that 62.5 percent of the Ara-Israeli respondents saw the Jews as 'foreign settlers who do not fit into the region and will eventually leave, when the land will return to the Palestinians.'"

http://www.france24.com/en/20110522-poll-shows-hardening-jewish-arab-attitudes#

so why would Israel negotiate with either the PA or the Palestinian street when neither will recognize Israel's right to exist?!

sorry to introduce you to reality

[Liberté]

so why would Israel negotiate with either the PA or the Palestinian street when neither will recognize Israel's right to exist?!

sorry to introduce you to reality

Oh, I'm certain a vast majority of Palestinians don't believe that Israel has a right to exist (and I absolutely agree with them insofar as no state has a 'right' to exist). I don't think, however, that if they were privy to the political machinations behind the scenes, that they'd want to commit genocide against the Israelis, or anything of the sort. In fact, if both sides were privy to how their leaders manipulate them and stir their passions only to later stall out, I'm pretty sure they'd both work together to eliminate their political classes and then work out their problems later. But that's an idealistic pipe dream.

Netanyahu is notorious for playing games. He just played one in Congress today, and it worked for him. Arafat and Abbas both play games. And by 'games', I mean they preserve the illusion of progress or revanchism while carefully managing events to remain tense - and unmoving.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so why would Israel negotiate with either the PA or the Palestinian street when neither will recognize Israel's right to exist?!

sorry to introduce you to reality

Oh, I'm certain a vast majority of Palestinians don't believe that Israel has a right to exist (and I absolutely agree with them insofar as no state has a 'right' to exist). I don't think, however, that if they were privy to the political machinations behind the scenes, that they'd want to commit genocide against the Israelis, or anything of the sort. In fact, if both sides were privy to how their leaders manipulate them and stir their passions only to later stall out, I'm pretty sure they'd both work together to eliminate their political classes and then work out their problems later. But that's an idealistic pipe dream.

Netanyahu is notorious for playing games. He just played one in Congress today, and it worked for him. Arafat and Abbas both play games. And by 'games', I mean they preserve the illusion of progress or revanchism while carefully managing events to remain tense - and unmoving.

so, the conflict doesnt represent the true feelings of the citizens on either side?!

you are below the logical hard deck for this hop, and I am calling no joy...see you back on deck

[Lief 🗽]

Lets just hope the Gazans have grown up in the last couple of years.  They only fired 127 rockets randomly at civilians last year, (killing 1) with the blockade in full effect which is the lowest year for random Gaza rocket attacks on civilians since 2002.

Yes, clearly it's the Gazans who need to "grow up."