Men and women are different

[CitizenX]

I await the day when these bullsh**t ideas go the way of the theory that certain races are biologically superior to others.

So you agree with high school boys being forced to wrestle girls?  That is just bizarre.  Men of every race are different than women of every race.

Given the same genetic background and environment men a generally taller than women.

Given the same genetic background and environment men tend to be more muscular than women.

Given the same genetic background and environment women tend to do better in school than men.

These are facts.  If you look in any reputable scientific publication you will see these facts repeated.  I hardly see why me repeating them equates to racism.

The women in my life like to be treated like women and they act like women.  Most of them actually make more money than me, but they still want to be treated like women.  They have no desire to be "one of the guys."

Where are we heading with this one sex thing?

Check out this insanity...

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1342058&srvc=home&position=emailed

Biology is behind only a small portion of the things we recognize as differences between men and women.  The rest is the result of gender socialization.

And, there's a difference between sex and gender.

This idea, that gender is entirely linked to biological sex and that how children are socialized has little to no impact, is completely misguided and ignorant.

Really??? I have studied human anatomy and physiology as well as psychology and the bulk of what I read says quite the opposite.  Well not the complete opposite.  Genetics plays a big role in gender.  No one can tell you to what degree but to dismiss genetics like you have is just factually incorrect.

Men and women are different.  That's what makes things so complex.

Is it discrimination to get up and give your seat to a lady on a bus?  Should we send Western female reporters into a mob in the middle of Tahrir Square?  Should we send women into combat where they can be captured by Muslim men?

If your answer to all these questions is they are irrelevant men and women are the same then I really have to wonder about you.

I do think the feminist go to far in certain situations.  I think the way men are born suspects in family law court is terrible.  But I think swinging to the other extreme and saying we are all one sex is unacceptable.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we are all "one sex." What is being argued is that there is a double standard here and that justice ought to be blind to sex. What is also being argued is that physical sex does not always correspond to gender identity. I find your view on this matter frustrating and backwards, as do many others; however, it isn't really relevant. Nevertheless I will comment that you and much of society's idea that all women and men should behave in a matter society has deemed parallel in relation to what's inbetween their legs as offensive and extremely wrong-headed. Every individual should be able to be themselves wholly (barring actions that harm others) no matter what a culture has labelled as acceptable behaviour for their sex. Anything less poisons an individual's ability to lead a fulfilling life. The fact that the vast majority of people are quite happy to play it safe in their culturally subjective gender roles is fine, too. But to suggest we conceal parts of our personality in order to comply with the assinine notion of what is "manly" or "ladylike" is a disgrace. The prevailing attitude (yours) makes life a living hell for hundreds of millions of people every single day.

In summary, this is why I will never invite you over for a cup of tea.

I don't think that my opening doors for a lady or standing up on a crowded bus so a lady may sit is really that bad.  I've never gotten any complaints and it hasn't turned my life or the lives of women around me into a "living hell" as you put it.

You know I've asked some very simple questions of you all and the fact that no one wishes to give a simply straight forward asnwer tells me that you guys are being disingenuous.  So I am going to give you one more chance.  Here goes...

Do you open doors for ladies?

Do you stand up on a crowded bus or train and offer your seat to a lady?

Do you think its appropriate for teenage boys to wrestle females?

Do you think its appropriate for teenage boys to be forced to play tackle football with females?

Would you send your wife or daughter into Tahrir Square at night with a bunch of rowdy Muslim men if she was a reporter?

Would you send your wife into armed combat in a war zone where she could be captured by Muslim soldiers?

Please answer each of these questions truthfully and then we'll discuss.

Men and women are different.  Most of us are comfortable with some degree of difference.  We are comfortable with our rolls and responsibilities.  The question is when and to what degree is it okay to view men and women as different.

[memphis]

I'm not super interested in feminism, but the problem is that your argument is all about averages. People are not averages. There is a lot of variation. There are plenty of women who are taller, stronger, and worse at school than me. I doubt any woman could make the wrestling team because she's not going to be able to keep up with the strongest guys, but the same is true for me as well. I'd give up my seat for an old lady (or man) or a woman (or man) with a small child. A healthy woman can stand just as well as I can. Of course, I wouldn't send a woman to an oppressive Muslim hellhole. Not because she's a woman but because she'll be treated like dirt there (from people who would agree with you that they are all weak and in need of protection.) Same reason I wouldn't send a black to Alabama in 1920. Or a gay to West Virginia in 2011. Sometimes you have to look past idealism and accept reality.

[Antonio the Sixth]

We are all human beings. That's everything that matters to me.


Splitting humanity in categories (racial, sexual, religious) is a regressive and archaic vision that goes against civilization.

[ilikeverin]

Of course men and women are different, on average, on more than a physiological basis (Nolen-Hoecksma, 2001; Voyer, Voyer, & Bryden, 1997).  But differences on average should not translate to differences in treatment; it's impossible to ascertain whether someone is going to be "average" or an outlier just by looking at them.

[CitizenX]

I'm not super interested in feminism, but the problem is that your argument is all about averages. People are not averages. There is a lot of variation. There are plenty of women who are taller, stronger, and worse at school than me. I doubt any woman could make the wrestling team because she's not going to be able to keep up with the strongest guys, but the same is true for me as well. I'd give up my seat for an old lady (or man) or a woman (or man) with a small child. A healthy woman can stand just as well as I can. Of course, I wouldn't send a woman to an oppressive Muslim hellhole. Not because she's a woman but because she'll be treated like dirt there (from people who would agree with you that they are all weak and in need of protection.) Same reason I wouldn't send a black to Alabama in 1920. Or a gay to West Virginia in 2011. Sometimes you have to look past idealism and accept reality.

Thank you for honestly answering my questions.  None of the questions I asked is theoretical or hypothetical.  These are all situations I've seen and after some reflection I made a decision about each one.  I found it odd that I was called a backwards barbarian because I held a door open for a lady.  What is the world coming to.

I do agree with you.  I would always let an elderly man or woman sit down.

The woman on the male wrestling team question was not hypothetical.  This situation occurred.  The boy in question either had to beat up a girl to "win," or forfeit.  Or maybe even worse he could potential get beat up by a girl in front of his teammates and family.  I just can't see myself taking time on a Saturday to watch a sweaty high school guy squirm all over an under aged girl in a Greco Roman wresting match.  That to me is distasteful and does not represent a positive direction for society.

Now eliminating pay disparity for women... I'm a huge advocate of that.

[CitizenX]

We are all human beings. That's everything that matters to me.


Splitting humanity in categories (racial, sexual, religious) is a regressive and archaic vision that goes against civilization.

Ok.  But I've noticed that you have opted not to answer my simple questions.  If you feel that strongly you should be able to confidently provide an answer to each question in a few minutes.  Please set me straight and tell me what to do in each of these situations.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Your questions are retarded bullsh*t, but if you insist...

Do you open doors for ladies?

I am a reasonably polite person, so when I have the occasion I open doors for whoever I can, male or female.

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Dunno. Depends. In any case, gender won't be a criteria to accepting/refusing to offer my seat.

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I don't think it's appropriate to wrestle anyone. So you think violence is OK when it's on males ?

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Why in the world should they be "forced" ? Of course it's not appropriate. It's appropriate for people to play football how they want with whoever they want as long as they are not forced.

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Idiot. I wouldn't "send" my wife anywhere because my wife would do whatever she wants.

[CitizenX]

Your questions are retarded bullsh*t[/size], but if you insist...

Do you open doors for ladies?

I am a reasonably polite person, so when I have the occasion I open doors for whoever I can, male or female.

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Dunno. Depends. In any case, gender won't be a criteria to accepting/refusing to offer my seat.

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I don't think it's appropriate to wrestle anyone. So you think violence is OK when it's on males ?

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Why in the world should they be "forced" ? Of course it's not appropriate. It's appropriate for people to play football how they want with whoever they want as long as they are not forced.

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Idiot. I wouldn't "send" my wife anywhere because my wife would do whatever she wants.

Eloquent rebuttal.  You can tell something about a man by the way he conducts himself in a conversation.

Its nice that Italy is so libertarian that the troops in your military can pick an choose which missions they go on... like a menu.  Here in America our civilian government routinely "sends" our troops on missions they don't necessarily agree with.

The same is true of our private sector.  Our news organizations routinely "send" reports to dangerous places.  Its not like they all have free reign to pick and choose their assignments particularly when they are climbing the ladder.

[CitizenX]

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I don't think it's appropriate to wrestle anyone. So you think violence is OK when it's on males ?

You're views are quite comfortably outside the American mainstream.  The types of issues that drive you to spew out a string of obscenities just aren't that important to me.  You must live a pretty charmed life.

Obviously we are never going to see eye to eye.  I am glad you answered my questions.  Your answers and the manner in which you delivered them tells me something about you.  There is no point in us conversing further on this particular point.  We will have to politely agree to disagree and move on to more pressing matters.

[TJ in Oregon]

Men and women are different anatomically and in many other less tangible gender-related ways that are influenced by society but also have biological roots such as differing hormone levels. The idea that gender is "just a social construct" is not completely true, though it certainly is partly from socialization. There was a case where doctors took one identical twin boy and made him into a girl at birth. It went pretty badly wrong and he re-became a man and eventually comitted suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[TJ in Oregon]

On the issue of equal pay, etc. I think a man or woman should be judged purely on job performance. If it is advantageous from a performance standpoint to be a woman in a certain field, than a woman on average should be paid more than a man and vice versa. I do have a problem with any job that would require different standards for each gender, for instance if a physical strength test was altered to allow females to pass. Of course in reality there are some jobs more men will want to do and some more women will want to do. For instance, few women gravitate toward engineering and most hard sciences. Oh well, so be it. We shouldn't exclude women from these fields unless there is a specific reason why women cannot have a certain job (ex. the military doesn't station women on submarines because they worry about the social effects of having so many men 'trapped' down there, or for religious organizations who reserve the right to have separate gender roles) But having women in science would be great!

As far as holding doors open and giving up seats on a bus, I always try to for women. When I was younger I used to resent having to do so, but now accept that it's part of being a man. If I get married and have children some day, either me or my wife would probably have to take a few years off work to raise the kids. I believe that this is part of the responsibility of having kids. Since the traditional role of women is gone, someone still needs to do that job.

[tik 🪀✨]

So you've decided to start another thread based on my reply to that other thread? Or perhaps a moderator has.. either way, I'm extremely tickled. Look, CitizenX, I do not think you are a bad person because of what you believe, I think you are misguided. This makes me out to be a pompous loser, and I embrace that. But based on the reply you've started this thread with, it is very clear to me that we are on entirely different pages. I will still reply to your questions in a way that (hopefully) clarifies my point.

I don't think that my opening doors for a lady or standing up on a crowded bus so a lady may sit is really that bad.  I've never gotten any complaints and it hasn't turned my life or the lives of women around me into a "living hell" as you put it.

You know I've asked some very simple questions of you all and the fact that no one wishes to give a simply straight forward asnwer tells me that you guys are being disingenuous.  So I am going to give you one more chance.  Here goes...

Do you open doors for ladies?

It was never my intention whatsoever to imply that you being old-fashioned and chivalrous was turning the lives of women around you into a "living hell." I don't care if you open doors for ladies. In my mind we only have a dissagreement if you're holding doors open (literally and figuratively) because the other person is female. To me one should hold a door open for everyone because it is kind irrespective of their genitalia. Do you not hold doors open for male strangers? Somehow, I doubt it. I also dislike feminists who consider having the door held open for them offensive. I will hold the door open for anyone because I try daily not to be an asshole to strangers. I would hope to God you do too. We do not disagree and this is not what I was ranting about.

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I have not had many opportunities to do this. I have had some, however, and I have given my seat to people who seemed particularly ill at ease standing. Typically, this is an old person or someone pregnant. I do not care at all if any random female stands while I sit.

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Any way you answer it you can be both vindicated and condemned. Are both parties willing to wrestle? Yes? It is appropriate then. Theirs are the only two opinions that should, ideally, matter. Because of the way societies socialise genders, though, I can understand the male or the female declining. Neither party should be forced to participate, of course.

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I don't really get along with the concept of anyone being forced to do anything unless there is a sure reason to override their rights. Let's subtract the word "force" then, to humour you. Is teenage males playing tackle football against females appropriate? I don't see what is inappropriate about that on its face. There are plenty of opportunities for inappropriate things to happen as a result of this circumstance, which is something the female and her parents know fully yet still let her engage in these activities. Because an unfortunate event may, perhaps, result from another event, does not make the original event one that is wrong.

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If she is a reporter then I imagine she is an adult capable of making her own decisions about whether or not to go to a place that is dangerous (because obviously "rowdy Muslim men" = danger, right?) and I would simply give my two cents about it. A man does not "send" women places because he is a man. Do you understand this? This question itself is either regrettably worded or downright sexist.

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I don't "send" my wife anywhere, again. I don't care who is going into an armed combat zone, I don't want them to be harmed. I do not care if they are "Muslim soldiers" either, and you singling them out like that is weird and sad.

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Ah, finally! Meat and potatoes! I have answered your questions as best as I can at the moment but I'll address my real point here in case anyone is still reading. Men and women are different, yes, but men and women are both people. Societies nowadays have compartmentalised almost everything into "male" and "female," but all attributes as exemplified to varying degrees in everyone, but by and large most people hide qualities of themselves in order to comply with gender roles. It can be as deep as a man who stifles his emotions because outwardly expressing them is considered feminine or a woman who is beaten by her husband because she's been taught her entire life that she is weaker to really rather absurd things like the idea that men do not eat yogurt or that women should not appreciate cars. This is what makes life a living hell for so many people: a man who refuses to properly express who he is because any sign of "weakness" make him effete, so he bottles emotions until one day he bursts. A woman who takes an unfulfilling job while what she really wants to do is seen as a male specialty (maths, science, etc). A man who ignores his family directly because he assumes a man's job is just to make money and emotional support is for only women. Blah blah.

Men and women are different, but we are all people. Dictating how we act and treat others because of our and their sex is not actually showing respect to others because they have value as people, it is subdividing humanity along often inconsequential lines in an effort to conform with a largely stable norm for the sake of itself. My rant is for the men who are not manly and the ladies that are decidedly unladylike. They are trying to be free. There is nothing wrong with that.

[Free Palestine]

Hurrdurrdurrdurrdurr

[Liberté]

Individuals are different, one from the other. Differentiating on the basis of sex is as arbitrary as any other standard of judgment.

[Mechaman]

Individuals are different, one from the other. Differentiating on the basis of sex is as arbitrary as any other standard of judgment.

This.
While I will refrain from the bold denunciations of my friend Antonio V I have to admit that I am quite perplexed at your line of questioning.  Granted FallenMorgan represents an extreme fringe anti-sexual more and traditionalist viewpoint, but the way you worded the original post makes it sound like there isn't any "menu" option in regards to views like this.

[Mechaman]

Alright, here goes:

Do you open doors for ladies?

I open doors for men and women whenever I can.  It's the polite thing to do.

Do you stand up on a crowded bus or train and offer your seat to a lady?

Being raised to consider the needs of others as more important than my own (barring any major health issues) I would of course relinquish my seat to a fellow passenger.  Though I will admit that being raised in a southern household like I was I'm more likely to do so for a woman than a man due to the inherent emphasis on gentlemenly manners and behavior.  Meh I guess that makes me sexist.

Do you think its appropriate for teenage boys to wrestle females?

Uh I guess?  I don't really see that as a big deal since wrestling is a pretty tough sport to begin with (in other words girls into wrestling are probably strong enough to kick my ass, which I gauge to be strong enough to wrestle with teenage boys).
That isn't to say that boys and girls should be forced to wrestle each other though but consensual wrestling matches between different genders isn't a big deal.

Do you think its appropriate for teenage boys to be forced to play tackle football with females?

No, I am not a fan of "forcing" people to do stuff.

Would you send your wife or daughter into Tahrir Square at night with a bunch of rowdy Muslim men if she was a reporter?

I'm sorry, but my wife and/or daughter are individuals capable of freewill who can make their own decisions.  I wouldn't force them to go through a possibly dangerous area at night.  I would instead let them make such decisions as to where to go on their own.

Would you send your wife into armed combat in a war zone where she could be captured by Muslim soldiers?

No, my wife is the only person who ultimately decides whether or not she's in the armed forces in the first place.  I can't send her, nor can I prevent her from deciding to be in the army.  It all goes back to freewill, each person gets to make their own decisions regardless of what other people think.  There may be consequences, but I would prefer accepting those consequences in exerting my individuality than having choices forced upon me.

[hawkeye59]

I await the day when these bullsh**t ideas go the way of the theory that certain races are biologically superior to others.

So you agree with high school boys being forced to wrestle girls?  That is just bizarre.  Men of every race are different than women of every race.

Given the same genetic background and environment men a generally taller than women.

Given the same genetic background and environment men tend to be more muscular than women.

Given the same genetic background and environment women tend to do better in school than men.

These are facts.  If you look in any reputable scientific publication you will see these facts repeated.  I hardly see why me repeating them equates to racism.

The women in my life like to be treated like women and they act like women.  Most of them actually make more money than me, but they still want to be treated like women.  They have no desire to be "one of the guys."

Where are we heading with this one sex thing?

Check out this insanity...

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1342058&srvc=home&position=emailed

Biology is behind only a small portion of the things we recognize as differences between men and women.  The rest is the result of gender socialization.

And, there's a difference between sex and gender.

This idea, that gender is entirely linked to biological sex and that how children are socialized has little to no impact, is completely misguided and ignorant.

Really??? I have studied human anatomy and physiology as well as psychology and the bulk of what I read says quite the opposite.  Well not the complete opposite.  Genetics plays a big role in gender.  No one can tell you to what degree but to dismiss genetics like you have is just factually incorrect.

Men and women are different.  That's what makes things so complex.

Is it discrimination to get up and give your seat to a lady on a bus?  Should we send Western female reporters into a mob in the middle of Tahrir Square?  Should we send women into combat where they can be captured by Muslim men?

If your answer to all these questions is they are irrelevant men and women are the same then I really have to wonder about you.

I do think the feminist go to far in certain situations.  I think the way men are born suspects in family law court is terrible.  But I think swinging to the other extreme and saying we are all one sex is unacceptable.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we are all "one sex." What is being argued is that there is a double standard here and that justice ought to be blind to sex. What is also being argued is that physical sex does not always correspond to gender identity. I find your view on this matter frustrating and backwards, as do many others; however, it isn't really relevant. Nevertheless I will comment that you and much of society's idea that all women and men should behave in a matter society has deemed parallel in relation to what's inbetween their legs as offensive and extremely wrong-headed. Every individual should be able to be themselves wholly (barring actions that harm others) no matter what a culture has labelled as acceptable behaviour for their sex. Anything less poisons an individual's ability to lead a fulfilling life. The fact that the vast majority of people are quite happy to play it safe in their culturally subjective gender roles is fine, too. But to suggest we conceal parts of our personality in order to comply with the assinine notion of what is "manly" or "ladylike" is a disgrace. The prevailing attitude (yours) makes life a living hell for hundreds of millions of people every single day.

In summary, this is why I will never invite you over for a cup of tea.

I don't think that my opening doors for a lady or standing up on a crowded bus so a lady may sit is really that bad.  I've never gotten any complaints and it hasn't turned my life or the lives of women around me into a "living hell" as you put it.

You know I've asked some very simple questions of you all and the fact that no one wishes to give a simply straight forward asnwer tells me that you guys are being disingenuous.  So I am going to give you one more chance.  Here goes...

Do you open doors for ladies?
I would open doors for either gender. It's polite.

Do you stand up on a crowded bus or train and offer your seat to a lady?
I would offer my seat to either gender. Again, it's the polite thing to do.
Do you think its appropriate for teenage boys to wrestle females?
If both of them are consenting to it, it's fine. It's no different with boys wrestling boys, or girls wrestling girls.
Do you think its appropriate for teenage boys to be forced to play tackle football with females?
I don't think anybody should be "forced" to play tackle football with anyone, but if they both want to, I don't see why not.
Would you send your wife or daughter into Tahrir Square at night with a bunch of rowdy Muslim men if she was a reporter?
I would be hesitant to send my wife or daughter, or son, or anyone else in my close family to Tahrir Square at night, due to it being dangerous, but if they wished to, I would let them.
Would you send your wife into armed combat in a war zone where she could be captured by Muslim soldiers?
Same answer as the previous question. I would be afraid, no matter which gender, but if they wished to, I would let them.
Please answer each of these questions truthfully and then we'll discuss.

Men and women are different.  Most of us are comfortable with some degree of difference.  We are comfortable with our rolls and responsibilities.  The question is when and to what degree is it okay to view men and women as different.

If there is an average, it does not mean that all males or females are like that. For example, the average life expectancy for a woman in the US is 81 years. Does that mean that every woman lives to 81 years? Of course not.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

If you think they are different then they will be seen that way in your eyes. However in mine gender doesnt play a role unless it has to do with attraction.

I would answer your questions but they are so pointless seeing as you wont listen to others and in no way are planning to change your mind. I assume you are just looking to have a debate that goes nowhere. gooduck.

[Хahar 🤔]

Would you send your wife into armed combat in a war zone where she could be captured by Muslim soldiers?

Oh, dear.

[Earth]

Men and women are different, but we are all people. Dictating how we act and treat others because of our and their sex is not actually showing respect to others because they have value as people, it is subdividing humanity along often inconsequential lines in an effort to conform with a largely stable norm for the sake of itself. My rant is for the men who are not manly and the ladies that are decidedly unladylike. They are trying to be free. There is nothing wrong with that.

This is honestly the gayest thing (in the most pejorative sense) I've ever read on this forum.

Does anyone actually take this milquetoast feminist-lite egalitarianism seriously?

[Free Palestine]

Men and women are different, but we are all people. Dictating how we act and treat others because of our and their sex is not actually showing respect to others because they have value as people, it is subdividing humanity along often inconsequential lines in an effort to conform with a largely stable norm for the sake of itself. My rant is for the men who are not manly and the ladies that are decidedly unladylike. They are trying to be free. There is nothing wrong with that.

This is honestly the gayest thing (in the most pejorative sense) I've ever read on this forum.

Does anyone actually take this milquetoast feminist-lite egalitarianism seriously?

*raises hand*

[CitizenX]

Men and women are different, but we are all people. Dictating how we act and treat others because of our and their sex is not actually showing respect to others because they have value as people, it is subdividing humanity along often inconsequential lines in an effort to conform with a largely stable norm for the sake of itself. My rant is for the men who are not manly and the ladies that are decidedly unladylike. They are trying to be free. There is nothing wrong with that.

This is honestly the gayest thing (in the most pejorative sense) I've ever read on this forum.

Does anyone actually take this milquetoast feminist-lite egalitarianism seriously?

Nobody that is sane and has real problems to worry about even thinks about this garbage.

[Free Palestine]

HoffmanJohn CitizenX, have you read a single book on the psychology of gender that you didn't already agree with before reading?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Men and women are different, but we are all people. Dictating how we act and treat others because of our and their sex is not actually showing respect to others because they have value as people, it is subdividing humanity along often inconsequential lines in an effort to conform with a largely stable norm for the sake of itself. My rant is for the men who are not manly and the ladies that are decidedly unladylike. They are trying to be free. There is nothing wrong with that.

This is honestly the gayest thing (in the most pejorative sense) I've ever read on this forum.

Does anyone actually take this milquetoast feminist-lite egalitarianism seriously?

*raises hand*

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Why is this that, along with Israel/Palestine, threads on Feminism on the internet always bring out the worst in people?