Homosexuality
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Poll
Question: Do you believe that homosexuality is genetic, or a lifestyle choice?
#1
Democrat: genetic
 
#2
Democrat: lifestyle choice
 
#3
Republican: genetic
 
#4
Republican: lifestyle choice
 
#5
independent/third party: genetic
 
#6
independent/third party: lifestyle choice
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 123

Author Topic: Homosexuality  (Read 23760 times)
Frodo
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« on: June 25, 2011, 07:53:39 PM »

We had a poll somewhat like this years ago, but I don't want to go through the thread archives looking for it, so here is the newest incarnation of it.
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Ghost_white
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 07:55:18 PM »

False dichotomy.
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FEMA Camp Administrator
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 08:09:59 PM »

It doesn't affect my position on gay marriage, etc. and I don't really care.
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 08:29:43 PM »

Choice.
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Cincinnatus
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2011, 08:34:26 PM »

Choice.  Whether or not it's a choice or genetics, either way they should be afforded the freedoms to express said choice/genetic trait.  I think we are shaped by our experiences, and all of us have some attraction to the same-sex in some form.  Whether it's of sexual nature, or just admiration/envy, the degree/form of attraction is obviously dependent on the individual in question.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 08:38:04 PM »
« Edited: June 25, 2011, 08:59:07 PM by Snowguy716 »


I think homosexuality can be both/either environmental and/or genetic.  Some studies have indicated that the more boys a woman has, the higher the likelihood of them being gay.

Others show that a higher proportion of gay men had mothers who suffered a difficult pregnancy (it's because we're so fierce).

Yet others theorize it could be genetic, being that it was beneficial for groups of humans to have extra non-reproducing humans around to help care for others' children and also hunt and gather food without having to worry about children back at camp. 

As far as people who say how cultures never had gay marriage...

The Native Americans here, the Ojibwe, had a word for gays:  Niizh manidoowag, translated into English as "two-spirited", means somebody whose body simultaneously houses a male and female spirit.  Male "two spirits" have been documented in 130 tribes and hav ebeen described in almost every Native American tribe/culture in North America (Will Roscoe, "Zuni-Man Woman").  These men often took on both male and female roles in society as well as special roles such as being medics during battles or passing down the traditional stories and history of the tribe. 

The two-spirit men sometimes took wives as well as often taking husbands.  In almost all cases, these men took husbands who were not "two-spirits".. as in, they were "straight".  In the Ojibwe tribes, these two-spirit men were respected and revered and were thought to hold special powers, such as giving people special nicknames that would give them good luck.

Ozawindib is a famous example of a "two-spirit."  Ozawindib was a famous Ojibwe warrior and two-spirit that took many husbands.  He famously led Henry Rowe Schoolcraft to the source of the Mississippi River at Lake Itasca.  When camping further west along the Red River at modern day Pembina, North Dakota, Ozawindib made several proposals of marriage to Henry Schoolcraft, which Schoolcraft, of course, declined.

While two-spirit people in most Native American cultures were not considered specifically homosexual, it is likely that homosexual members of the tribes took on the roles of two-spirits.  As an example, most women two-spirits, from what documentation has been found, had homosexual relationships almost exclusively.

Two-Spirits referred to other two-spirits (both male and female) as their sisters, and it is believed that there were few cases of sexual relationships between two-spirits because it would be considered "incestuous." 

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Paul Kemp
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2011, 08:38:24 PM »

I don't think it's a choice in some sense but I don't think that genetic is the best way to describe it.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2011, 08:44:38 PM »

False dichotomy.  That said, it is a fundamentally "a way you are" thing.  That doesn't mean it's necessarily genetic, though.  You're attracted to the person you're attracted to, and you can't change that.
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2011, 09:09:22 PM »

Both Mikado and Snowy have brought up good points but I have a few more things to add:

1. You're implying that if homosexuality has a genetic component, it can't be influenced by our choices. In reality your orientation is influenced by cumulative experiences. Sometimes that's past sexual experiences. Sometimes it's things in your child hood. Sometimes it's simply how certain terms like 'sexual orientation' or 'gender' are defined or treated in a particular society. Obviously all these things can and do change. That does not imply however that you can just decide to develop an attraction to the same sex overnight.

2. Homosexuality wasn't even a coherent concept in the West until basically the 19th century and even now there's quite a bit of disagreement over what exactly being 'gay' means. Plenty of people will deny bisexuals exist and/or lump in anyone whose had a homosexual experience (particularly with a man) as automatically gay for example. Or claim that if you're on 'top' during a homosexual act, then you're not really gay. Or claim that if you have a homosexual experience in certain contexts (military, school, prison, whatever) then you're not really gay. And then of course there are all the issues associated with inter-sex and trans-gender people.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2011, 10:44:23 PM »

The predisposition to same-sex attraction is probably at least in part genetic, along with some element of socialization, any activity that could affect hormone levels, etc.

But, to act upon those attractions is not genetic at all. People also have the ability to not engage in a sex act or to enter into a certain relationship. So if we take homosexuality to be an act rather than an attraction (the word 'homosexuality' may be ambiguous in this respect, though I haven't met many celibate people who experience same-sex attraction who call themselves homosexuals so I am taking it to imply that one has engaged in said acts and is not celibate), then it must be a choice as long as we accept that we have the ability to make choices, ie. free will. If we have no free will then this is all a moot point anyway, so I'd consider "lifestyle choice" to be a more representative reflection of my view than "genetic" but that I'd rather select "Both" if I could.
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2011, 11:59:29 PM »

The predisposition to same-sex attraction is probably at least in part genetic, along with some element of socialization, any activity that could affect hormone levels, etc.

But, to act upon those attractions is not genetic at all. People also have the ability to not engage in a sex act or to enter into a certain relationship. So if we take homosexuality to be an act rather than an attraction (the word 'homosexuality' may be ambiguous in this respect, though I haven't met many celibate people who experience same-sex attraction who call themselves homosexuals so I am taking it to imply that one has engaged in said acts and is not celibate), then it must be a choice as long as we accept that we have the ability to make choices, ie. free will. If we have no free will then this is all a moot point anyway, so I'd consider "lifestyle choice" to be a more representative reflection of my view than "genetic" but that I'd rather select "Both" if I could.

Breathing and eating should also be classified as "lifestyle choices" then.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 04:25:04 AM »

Lifestyle choice.

This obsession with genetics explaining every part of our behaviour is one of the most disturbing traits of modernity.
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J. J.
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 08:33:32 AM »

I think, as others have noted that sexual preference could be shaped by environmental forces and it might be congenital, a trait you are born with, but not a genetic one.

One very strong argument against it being genetic is that, if it were, it would not lead to generational survival.  With some level of involvement of the opposite sex, humans cannot reproduce.  Throughout most of human history, that involved a heterosexual act.

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minionofmidas
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011, 09:25:50 AM »

The question has been answered by numerous people on the thread already.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2011, 09:28:51 AM »

Does it matter?
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2011, 09:34:18 AM »

The heritability of homosexuality is probably about 50%, so it's at least partially genetic, but is also probably influenced by environment, including prenatal environment.  The opposite of "genetic" isn't "choice", though, and to say that it's a conscious choice is almost certainly untrue.  Despite this, the gaybashers have a bit of a point.  We all have a lot of things we're born with and/or predisposed to that we don't have to act on, and if it is innate that doesn't make it inherently "better" or "worse".  That's why Al's statement is probably the best so far when it comes to the question of the morality of homosexuality; no matter whether you believe homosexuality is moral or immoral, you need to be able to make the argument about its morality regardless of whether it is a choice.

Lifestyle choice.

This obsession with genetics explaining every part of our behaviour is one of the most disturbing traits of modernity.

The refusal to accept genetics explaining any part of behavior is one of the most disturbing traits of the 20th century Tongue
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J. J.
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2011, 09:38:52 AM »

The question has been answered by numerous people on the thread already.

I don't think the congenital aspect was.

All that said, I don't somebody sits down and makes a decision to be of a certain sexual preference; I would not call it a "choice of lifestyle" in that regard.  Following up on that preference, gay, bi , or straight, is a choice, a personal one.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2011, 10:21:30 AM »

Lifestyle choice.

This obsession with genetics explaining every part of our behaviour is one of the most disturbing traits of modernity.

The refusal to accept genetics explaining any part of behavior is one of the most disturbing traits of the 20th century Tongue

Really ? I honestly don't see how so.



It does, for ideological matters. Believing in biological determinations or in free will leads to two very different visions of humanity.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2011, 11:04:28 AM »

It does, for ideological matters. Believing in biological determinations or in free will leads to two very different visions of humanity.

I'm sure that they do, but what does that matter (except in an angels-dancing-on-pinheads sense) in this context?
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J. J.
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2011, 11:16:43 AM »

It does, for ideological matters. Believing in biological determinations or in free will leads to two very different visions of humanity.

I'm sure that they do, but what does that matter (except in an angels-dancing-on-pinheads sense) in this context?

I think it helps us understand ourselves (including straight people).
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stegosaurus
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2011, 11:38:06 AM »
« Edited: June 26, 2011, 02:11:50 PM by stegosaurus »

I would guess lifestyle choice. Beyond our primal urge to reproduce, sexuality is something that we pick up over time from our social/cultural environment. To imply that homosexuality is genetic, you would also have to say that other sexual predilections are genetic, which seems a little silly.

Overall, I find homosexuality to be a psychological phenomena that people choose whether or not to act on. I could be wrong, but either way I fail to see how this is relevant to the debate on gay rights/marriage, which I assume this was aiming toward.
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J. J.
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2011, 01:15:10 PM »

Could we draw a distinction between sexual preference and sexual activity?

Sexual activityis usually lifestyle choice, but sexual preference does not seem to be.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2011, 01:39:49 PM »

Could it not be unrelated to genetics, yet at the same time not be a free choice? Seems like there is a world of possibilities you're not offering.
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J. J.
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2011, 01:51:47 PM »

Could it not be unrelated to genetics, yet at the same time not be a free choice? Seems like there is a world of possibilities you're not offering.

Congenital or possibly a learned trait, the latter like a native language (but obviously no gay or strait classes).

This is actually one of the better conversations on the subject.
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2011, 02:19:08 PM »
« Edited: June 26, 2011, 02:21:40 PM by Sic Semper Tyrannis »

Could it not be unrelated to genetics, yet at the same time not be a free choice? Seems like there is a world of possibilities you're not offering.

It's possible.

There might be some reason relating to socialization in early childhood that causes people to become gay.  In fact, I think that is definitely the cause of transgenderism.  Neither are "choices," but nor are they, in my belief, genetic.
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