Homosexuality

[J. J.]

I think, as others have noted that sexual preference could be shaped by environmental forces and it might be congenital, a trait you are born with, but not a genetic one.

One very strong argument against it being genetic is that, if it were, it would not lead to generational survival.  With some level of involvement of the opposite sex, humans cannot reproduce.  Throughout most of human history, that involved a heterosexual act.

[J. J.]

The question has been answered by numerous people on the thread already.

I don't think the congenital aspect was.

All that said, I don't somebody sits down and makes a decision to be of a certain sexual preference; I would not call it a "choice of lifestyle" in that regard.  Following up on that preference, gay, bi , or straight, is a choice, a personal one.

[J. J.]

It does, for ideological matters. Believing in biological determinations or in free will leads to two very different visions of humanity.

I'm sure that they do, but what does that matter (except in an angels-dancing-on-pinheads sense) in this context?

I think it helps us understand ourselves (including straight people).

[J. J.]

Could we draw a distinction between sexual preference and sexual activity?

Sexual activityis usually lifestyle choice, but sexual preference does not seem to be.

[J. J.]

Could it not be unrelated to genetics, yet at the same time not be a free choice? Seems like there is a world of possibilities you're not offering.

Congenital or possibly a learned trait, the latter like a native language (but obviously no gay or strait classes).

This is actually one of the better conversations on the subject.

[J. J.]

It does, for ideological matters. Believing in biological determinations or in free will leads to two very different visions of humanity.

I'm sure that they do, but what does that matter (except in an angels-dancing-on-pinheads sense) in this context?

I think it helps us understand ourselves (including straight people).

Isn't that a little solipsistic? Besides, why should that have any bearing on how we - as a society - treat homosexuals? (or any other minority, for that matter).

No.  I'm interested in how the works.  There are a bunch of legal issues that deal with treatment of people.  This thread is not about those issues.

[J. J.]

The predisposition to same-sex attraction is probably at least in part genetic, along with some element of socialization, any activity that could affect hormone levels, etc.

But, to act upon those attractions is not genetic at all. People also have the ability to not engage in a sex act or to enter into a certain relationship. So if we take homosexuality to be an act rather than an attraction (the word 'homosexuality' may be ambiguous in this respect, though I haven't met many celibate people who experience same-sex attraction who call themselves homosexuals so I am taking it to imply that one has engaged in said acts and is not celibate), then it must be a choice as long as we accept that we have the ability to make choices, ie. free will. If we have no free will then this is all a moot point anyway, so I'd consider "lifestyle choice" to be a more representative reflection of my view than "genetic" but that I'd rather select "Both" if I could.

Breathing and eating should also be classified as "lifestyle choices" then.

What we eat is largely a lifestyle choice, as is how much we eat.  It isn't absolute free will, but it is close.

[J. J.]

The predisposition to same-sex attraction is probably at least in part genetic, along with some element of socialization, any activity that could affect hormone levels, etc.

But, to act upon those attractions is not genetic at all. People also have the ability to not engage in a sex act or to enter into a certain relationship. So if we take homosexuality to be an act rather than an attraction (the word 'homosexuality' may be ambiguous in this respect, though I haven't met many celibate people who experience same-sex attraction who call themselves homosexuals so I am taking it to imply that one has engaged in said acts and is not celibate), then it must be a choice as long as we accept that we have the ability to make choices, ie. free will. If we have no free will then this is all a moot point anyway, so I'd consider "lifestyle choice" to be a more representative reflection of my view than "genetic" but that I'd rather select "Both" if I could.

Breathing and eating should also be classified as "lifestyle choices" then.

What we eat is largely a lifestyle choice, as is how much we eat.  It isn't absolute free will, but it is close.

That's actually probably untrue.  Obesity has high heritability, somewhere around .80 (higher than height, even!).  A lot of that is likely due to different food preferences which might be essentially hardwired.  I'm somewhat of a supertaster, for example, and my eating habits reflect that; consequently, I'm not overweight.  It's hard to imagine the number of taste buds on my tongue not at least partially being a product of genetics

That's not to say you can't help your weight entirely, of course.  But most people don't try to do things completely out of sync with what their body tells them.

We still choose how much to eat.

[J. J.]

Democrat, Lifestyle Choice

This is not a very good poll.  I chose lifestyle choice because I'm not comfortable with the whole gay thing, but truth be told there just isn't enough science to support either view.

Well I can help you with part of it. I'm gay; so if you consider it to be a 'lifestyle choice', ask me anything you want on it.

Any blood relatives that are gay? 

[J. J.]

Democrat, Lifestyle Choice

This is not a very good poll.  I chose lifestyle choice because I'm not comfortable with the whole gay thing, but truth be told there just isn't enough science to support either view.

Well I can help you with part of it. I'm gay; so if you consider it to be a 'lifestyle choice', ask me anything you want on it.

Any blood relatives that are gay? 

Yes; 2.

Current or former generation?  Grew up in the same area or some distance away.

(You have me beat by one.)

Added:  One parent's side or both parents sides'.

[J. J.]

Democrat, Lifestyle Choice

This is not a very good poll.  I chose lifestyle choice because I'm not comfortable with the whole gay thing, but truth be told there just isn't enough science to support either view.

Well I can help you with part of it. I'm gay; so if you consider it to be a 'lifestyle choice', ask me anything you want on it.

Any blood relatives that are gay? 

Yes; 2.

Current or former generation?  Grew up in the same area or some distance away.

(You have me beat by one.)

Added:  One parent's side or both parents sides'.

One grew up in California The other grew up not far from me. And, same generation.

On one in a prior generation?

[J. J.]

Anyone who claims homosexuality a choice doesn't have a brain. You can't control to what/whom you're attracted to.

Did I ever "choose" to be straight? I don't recall.

Someone who is straight can choose not to engage in heterosexual activity, however.  That person's heterosexual preference does not mean that the person will act upon that preference.

I'd like to distinguish between the preference and the action.

[J. J.]

Anyone who claims homosexuality a choice doesn't have a brain. You can't control to what/whom you're attracted to.

Did I ever "choose" to be straight? I don't recall.

Someone who is straight can choose not to engage in heterosexual activity, however.  That person's heterosexual preference does not to be acted upon.

Choosing not to act on your innate sexual preference doesn't remove the sexual desire.

Why do so many people seem to think that heterosexuality/homosexuality/whatever is determined by who you actually have sex with, rather than who you want to have sex with?

I think, however, you have to make that distinction when you talk about "choice."  Someone can have a sexual preference and, for a number of reasons, choose to to act upon it.

Yes, that reason can be religious, but can also be not finding the right person and believing sex should not be casual and only in a committed relationship.  I think that would apply to any sexual preference, i.e. I don't think being gay means you have to sleep around.

Sexual activity, excluding rape, is a conscious choice.  Sexual preference probably is not a conscious choice, but it might not be genetic either.

[J. J.]

All right and true, but sexual preference is what the terms straight and gay refer to, so it's irrelevant.

"Sexual preference," "Sexual Attraction," or "Sexual orientation," all refer to what sex or sexes a person finds attractive.  It has nothing to do with any action of the individual.

I'm reminded of a story Pope John XXIII told about his days as Papal Nuncio in Paris:

"You know, it's rough being a papal nuncio. I get invited to these diplomatic parties where everyone stands around with a small plate of canapes trying not to look bored. Then, in walks a shapely woman in a low-cut, revealing gown, and everyone in the whole place turns around and looks -- At Me!"

Years later, he could remember the woman, probably indicating an attraction.  He didn't act upon that attraction.  Obviously, he didn't for religious reasons, but it did represent a choice.

I think you have to make that distiction, and I'm not suggesting that all gay people should be celibate.

[J. J.]

It's really in one's upbringing.

If it is purely genetic, then how can identitical twins have different sexual orientations?

You can have identical twins with some notable differences, however.

[J. J.]

Not all gay people have the same upbringing. Similarly, not all straight people do either.

But there might be some common factors.

I have a blood uncle who is gay, and so far as I know, none are of his siblings children are.

[J. J.]

While I agree that the act of sexuality is a choice, but I think the recipe for mental instability is the suppression of normal healthy sexual expression. I know some people who were and some who are still in the closet... and I honestly don't think I've known more miserable people.

Two points.

1.  When I say sexual activity is a choice, I'm not suggesting that the choice should be no, only noting that it is a choice.

2.  Someone who engages in secret sexual activity, i.e. "in the closet," has already made that choice.  I think that is a matter of personal preference, which I'll respect.

[J. J.]

Actually no, one can be in the closet and not be having sex, being in the closet is about deliberately hiding your sexuality.

Being in the closet means a "public" denial of your sexual preference, I will give you that.  The cases you described were of people sexually active that operate, or wish to operate, on that preference.

[J. J.]

Not all gay people have the same upbringing. Similarly, not all straight people do either.

But there might be some common factors.

Such as?

If I had some for sure, I would not have said "might."  Birth order has been mentioned.  A strong mother/father might be an environmental factor.

[J. J.]

Anyone who thinks about the nature of homosexuality, if not gay themselves must reflect upon the nature of their heterosexuality and the huge variety of genetic (and yes it must have a genetic basis given that we share genes with all species but not all species procreate, or reproduce sexually in the manner in which we do), pre-natal, chemical and environmental factors that shape this.

Then they should consider; what does it matter? Why should it have a bearing on how someone is treated, or what rights they have?

I think I have done the first.  Notice that I've said "sexual preference" and not talked about "homosexuality" or "heterosexuality."

I can make a biological case against homosexuality, and against heterosexual celibacy for that matter.  Neither leads to passing on the genes (note that I cannot make this argument against bisexuality).

The question was not "what rights gay people should have," but "What causes someone to be gay?"  That question leads to "What causes sexual preference?"

I don't want to equate sexuality to a disability (and I am disabled), but you can ask "What causes disability," and "What rights should disabled people have?"  You'll get two different answers, but one is a biological question.

[J. J.]

But I'm reasonably sure that it is a fundamentally different phenomenon than the physics and physiology behind what makes males lust for females and females lust for males.

It's worth remembering that homosexual behaviour has been documented in animals seperated by as much as, if not more than 200 million years of evolution...and countless generations later it is still here. Indeed it appears to have been around since animal species first started sexual procreation. It seems to go hand in hand.

My first question is, is that true homosexuality or bisexuality?

[J. J.]

Actually no, one can be in the closet and not be having sex, being in the closet is about deliberately hiding your sexuality.

Being in the closet means a "public" denial of your sexual preference, I will give you that.  The cases you described were of people sexually active that operate, or wish to operate, on that preference.

I think you're moving the goal posts on this one... there is a clear difference between the Act of sex and sexuality - someone can be sexually attracted to men, but having sex with women...

I think most people wish to act on their sexual interests... it's a kind of fundamental element of sexuality and how you know what your sexuality is.

No, I'm trying to disquish between the two.  The poll does not indicate that.

[J. J.]

These options are disingenuous.

AGREED!!!

It is nice, however, that we can have a civil discussion of sexuality.

[J. J.]

These options are disingenuous.

AGREED!!!

It is nice, however, that we can have a civil discussion of sexuality.

Yes!  jmfcst's departure has certainly helped the tenor of discussions about teh gay, at least a bit.

I don't think it is that.  Human sexually is a serious issue and we've having a serious discussion of it.

[J. J.]

I think, as others have noted that sexual preference could be shaped by environmental forces and it might be congenital, a trait you are born with, but not a genetic one.

One very strong argument against it being genetic is that, if it were, it would not lead to generational survival.  With some level of involvement of the opposite sex, humans cannot reproduce.  Throughout most of human history, that involved a heterosexual act.

Actually, a tribe having some gay men in it helped survival of the clan group, because they increased the survival rate of the young of the tribe by being sort of a social safety net as it were.  That is the theory anyway, and one I find persuasive.  It is very obvious to me that sexual preference along a continuum has a strong genetic component.

How so?