Atheist movie coming out in New York and Los Angeles (user search)
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  Atheist movie coming out in New York and Los Angeles (search mode)
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Author Topic: Atheist movie coming out in New York and Los Angeles  (Read 6153 times)
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
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Posts: 67,727
United Kingdom


« on: July 08, 2011, 07:03:47 PM »

That may be so, but how does making bad and/or patronising films help matters from your point of view? Just throwing that out there, you don't have to reply with a wall of text.
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,727
United Kingdom


« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2011, 08:14:13 AM »

Far more people in the last century were killed as a result of nationalism and other (usually related - in practice if not in theory) political ideologies than as a result of religious fervour. Most of the regimes and movements in question were/are avowedly secular and some were/are far more anti-religion than you. You know that, of course (you aren't an idiot), but I think it needs re-stating.

You can think whatever you like about religion and about the importance of evangelising on behalf of atheism (though a little more honesty on that point would be appreciated as you're arguing for a little more than mere lack of belief), but don't try to pretend that religious belief is the root of all evil in the world and the master key that explains all the horrors in history. Not if you want to be taken seriously by anyone who doesn't share your worldview, that is.
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,727
United Kingdom


« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2011, 09:35:50 AM »

Certainly - I don't deny that many of those regimes were secular. (though it's worth noting not all were)

Is it though? For that minority of regimes (and movements; let's also avoid the trap of assuming that terrible things are only carried out by governments) that were not secular, how important was their religious nature to the political murder that they were responsible for? Generally not at all; or about as relevant as the fact that the Nazis were German Nationalists.

Now, I need to point out that I'm not bringing up the essentially secular nature of mass murder in the twentieth century as a way of bashing the nonreligious; that would be beyond absurd for several reasons (one that you are, of course, aware of; so I won't bother to lay them out). I pointed it out because I do not like this tendency to argue that conflicts about religion and between religions are somehow central to history or to religion's role in it. In any case I would tend to argue that religion is something that humans do, rather than a 'thing' that causes humans to do other things (be they good or bad).

Of course there's also the interesting issue of conflicts that are often inaccurately ascribed religious motivation; the recent low level civil war in Northern Ireland would be a particularly good example of that. Other factors were at work, but because religion had become (for a complicated set of related factors) a marker of identity in the province, it was all that outside observers noticed; in part because doing so meant that they did not have to re-examine the complex relationships between Ulster (however defined) and the wider world. Though I suppose that counts as a digression (but then so does this entire discussion, such as it is, because whatever we are writing about it is not a film that I will never see).

Thinking a little further, perhaps that odd digression gets closer to what I'm attempting to get at than any actual attempts at a coherent explanation. Whenever the question of history emerges in a debate about religion (and it tends not to take very long) it is usually in a form that is horrifically reductionist. Not only that, but it denies agency (and so, in a way, absolves any responsibility) for anyone who isn't a special little snowflake of some kind or other.
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,727
United Kingdom


« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2011, 11:34:43 AM »

This was a week ago, so a detailed reply would be slightly weird. So I'll go straight to the heart of the matter:

To be clear I'm not trying to oversimplify history.

I don't think I really made that accusation. My complaint is directed at reductionism and all that follows from that (including potentially 'over-simplification', but that's really not the main issue) such as presentism. A prime example would be this:

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Now, it happens that the passage contains several glaring historical inaccuracies, but it would be problematic even if that were not the case. The problem is that you are trying to reduce  complicated events and processes to their so-called 'roots', with the intention of using these 'roots' to make comments about the present. Leaving aside the obvious issues there (which are massive enough), in order to do that you have to make selections. With selection comes bias (it's unavoidable). So you are, essentially, only looking at the past in order to cherry-pick whatever information (inevitably minus any meaningful context) you happen to be looking for in order to bolster the cause that you are arguing on behalf of in the present. The roots of anti-semitism in Europe (as if we could ever uncover them!) are completely irrelevant to understanding anti-semitism in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. And so on and so forth, for ever and ever, etc, etc, amen.
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