Applying To Colleges

[後援会]

Well if the people become smarter in the fall...I'll take your word for it! I'm probably going to put off Michigan and UVa until the end and most likely do both...but if I really only have time for one I'll choose then...waaaaay in November/December.

Trying to find knowledge among students at ANY college is a waste of effort. Trust me - there is no college in America where the students have any god damn clue what they're talking about. They're woefully uniformed everywhere. So better to focus on finding places with good departments and professors. Being surrounded with ignorant students is tolerable. But having to deal with a professor like that? That's like snuffing out your last candle of hope.

[Yelnoc]

Whoops, I didn't notice that people responded.

Man, you guys make me feel dumb.  My list consists of UGA, Georgia State, and the lesser Georgia public schools I'd rather not think about.

George State I've heard is a good school. Are you looking at Georgia Tech? My sister's friend is the only person I knew who went to a Georgia school, he's crazy brilliant. He went for a degree with something related to physics and astronomy but is now in a Ph. D. program at Johns Hopkins...for poetry.

I can't get into Georgia Tech, though I'm not looking at a science or engineering field so that's no big deal.

Man, you guys make me feel dumb.  My list consists of UGA, Georgia State, and the lesser Georgia public schools I'd rather not think about.

What are you thinking about studying? If you're interested in Political Science at all (or Public Management and Policy, which has its own school at GSU) definitely consider it over UGA even though it's a good bit further down in the overall rankings and lacks a lot of UGA's tradition. Being located literally next door to the State Capitol and very close to a bunch of state and federal agency headquarters, awesome internship opportunities are basically a dime a dozen.

I honestly don't know what I'm going to study.  I can't really make a living with anything I'm interested in.  Maybe economics?  But I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

Man, this whole process is intimidating.  I have to declare a major in two years, and the degree I graduate with is going to kinda set the course of my life.  And I don't even want to go to college (but I know I need to).  

[California8429]

Well if the people become smarter in the fall...I'll take your word for it! I'm probably going to put off Michigan and UVa until the end and most likely do both...but if I really only have time for one I'll choose then...waaaaay in November/December.

Trying to find knowledge among students at ANY college is a waste of effort. Trust me - there is no college in America where the students have any god damn clue what they're talking about. They're woefully uniformed everywhere. So better to focus on finding places with good departments and professors. Being surrounded with ignorant students is tolerable. But having to deal with a professor like that? That's like snuffing out your last candle of hope.

Good point

[California8429]

Just finally filled out the Common App, finished a draft of the personal statement, then I open the Yale Supplement and I cry a little to myself.

Yeah, I know trying to do Yale is sort-of insane, but because they have a restricted early-action program anyways, I figured why not. I actually liked New Haven, and after being able to take classes there and getting a feel of the campus and the school system, I honestly think it is exactly where I want to be.

But after Yale, the list is pretty undecided. Is it even worth it to apply to the UC system considering I am beyond a shadow of a doubt getting the hell out of California?

Woo! You and me both.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Just finally filled out the Common App, finished a draft of the personal statement, then I open the Yale Supplement and I cry a little to myself.

Yeah, I know trying to do Yale is sort-of insane, but because they have a restricted early-action program anyways, I figured why not. I actually liked New Haven, and after being able to take classes there and getting a feel of the campus and the school system, I honestly think it is exactly where I want to be.

But after Yale, the list is pretty undecided. Is it even worth it to apply to the UC system considering I am beyond a shadow of a doubt getting the hell out of California?

Woo! You and me both.

Sweet! What college are you doing it for?

Also, should I go ahead and try applying for Georgetown? I've been back and forth on going there, particularly because of the weather, but the internship opportunities seem to be so great.

For reference, my current list:

Yale
Columbia
University of Pennsylvania
Cornell
New York University
Boston University
Northwestern
Brown
UC Berkeley
UCLA

Also, because of my childhood dream, Harvard for the hell of it. I don't think that'll actually happen though, but who knows?

[Psychic Octopus]

Why don't any of you guys have LACs on your lists? Just curious, because to me, they seem really appealing, especially ones like Occidental, Swarthmore, and the Claremonts, because they are within reach of the major cities.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Why don't any of you guys have LACs on your lists? Just curious, because to me, they seem really appealing, especially ones like Occidental, Swarthmore, and the Claremonts, because they are within reach of the major cities.

Personally, I just never felt right with any LACs. I considered Sarah Lawrence and Wesleyan, but, I guess it was just a secondary thing for me. I need to limit the amount of colleges I apply to anyways, just so I don't have to pay over 800 bucks just paying admissions fees.

I guess the usual remoteness and the size bothers me more than it should. And also, Yale is a liberal arts college.

[tmthforu94]

Man, you guys make me feel dumb.  My list consists of UGA, Georgia State, and the lesser Georgia public schools I'd rather not think about.

I have a sister-in-law who went to Georgia. I can guarantee you that if you go to UGA, it will be four of the greatest years of your life. Plus, it's tuition free with the state scholarship, isn't it called HOPE?

[後援会]

Why don't any of you guys have LACs on your lists? Just curious, because to me, they seem really appealing, especially ones like Occidental, Swarthmore, and the Claremonts, because they are within reach of the major cities.

Seconded. And Claremont McKenna is fantastic.

[ilikeverin]

the degree I graduate with is going to kinda set the course of my life. 

That is absolutely false.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I didn't want to go to a small school, so LACs didn't really appeal to me.  I felt more at home with big research schools.

[California8429]

Just finally filled out the Common App, finished a draft of the personal statement, then I open the Yale Supplement and I cry a little to myself.

Yeah, I know trying to do Yale is sort-of insane, but because they have a restricted early-action program anyways, I figured why not. I actually liked New Haven, and after being able to take classes there and getting a feel of the campus and the school system, I honestly think it is exactly where I want to be.

But after Yale, the list is pretty undecided. Is it even worth it to apply to the UC system considering I am beyond a shadow of a doubt getting the hell out of California?

Woo! You and me both.

Sweet! What college are you doing it for?

Also, should I go ahead and try applying for Georgetown? I've been back and forth on going there, particularly because of the weather, but the internship opportunities seem to be so great.

For reference, my current list:

Yale
Columbia
University of Pennsylvania
Cornell
New York University
Boston University
Northwestern
Brown
UC Berkeley
UCLA

Also, because of my childhood dream, Harvard for the hell of it. I don't think that'll actually happen though, but who knows?

I'm still deciding who to cut, because schools need to be cut.

Yale
Harvard
Princeton (Possible cut)
Stanford (Possible cut)
Brown
Cornell (Possible cut)
Georgetown
Duke (Possible cut)
Tufts
George Washington (maybe even better for internships since it is in the center of everything political whereas Georgetown doesn't even have a metro stop)
American University (Possible cut)
College of William and Mary (duel degree with St. Andrews)
UVa (Possible cut)
Michigan (Possible cut)
University of Denver

[Kaine for Senate '18]

DON'T CUT UVA!!!  EVERYBODY APPLY TO UVA!!!!!

[California8429]

DON'T CUT UVA!!!  EVERYBODY APPLY TO UVA!!!!!

[Kaine for Senate '18]

No, just UVA

[後援会]

Apply to all the colleges isn't a bad idea. Think of it like a shotgun - at least one pellet should hit. And I personally don't think colleges are that different from one another.

Of course, in the ye olde days, I prepared to apply to 20+ colleges, but then I got into my early decision school before sending any of them out (excluding one). Oh well.

[California8429]

Apply to all the colleges isn't a bad idea. Think of it like a shotgun - at least one pellet should hit. And I personally don't think colleges are that different from one another.

Of course, in the ye olde days, I prepared to apply to 20+ colleges, but then I got into my early decision school before sending any of them out (excluding one). Oh well.

The problem is all these schools have supplement essays and questions for just their university.

[Psychic Octopus]

Why don't any of you guys have LACs on your lists? Just curious, because to me, they seem really appealing, especially ones like Occidental, Swarthmore, and the Claremonts, because they are within reach of the major cities.

Personally, I just never felt right with any LACs. I considered Sarah Lawrence and Wesleyan, but, I guess it was just a secondary thing for me. I need to limit the amount of colleges I apply to anyways, just so I don't have to pay over 800 bucks just paying admissions fees.

I guess the usual remoteness and the size bothers me more than it should. And also, Yale is a liberal arts college.

Fair enough. I just like the idea of a small college; I'd be a bit fearful of being lost in a crowd of 30,000 people (though I am applying to USC, which has a lot of students).

Why don't any of you guys have LACs on your lists? Just curious, because to me, they seem really appealing, especially ones like Occidental, Swarthmore, and the Claremonts, because they are within reach of the major cities.

Seconded. And Claremont McKenna is fantastic.

I loved Claremont McKenna. The politics focus, the graduate placement rate, the idea of many schools centered around one another, but all having their distinct identities. The school's rapidly rising in popularity. I liked Occidental's location a bit more, though, and the idea of interning at the United Nations for a semester is almost too good to pass up.

I think that LACs are ultimately better for me, but I am applying to traditional universities. I just think that I'll get a lot of focus from professors and have more room for intellectual growth, however, and that's really appealing.

What was your early decision school?

[後援会]

The problem is all these schools have supplement essays and questions for just their university.

So be a boss and apply to all the colleges that don't require a supplement.

What was your early decision school?

Um...a place.

[ilikeverin]

Why don't any of you guys have LACs on your lists? Just curious, because to me, they seem really appealing, especially ones like Occidental, Swarthmore, and the Claremonts, because they are within reach of the major cities.

Personally, I just never felt right with any LACs. I considered Sarah Lawrence and Wesleyan, but, I guess it was just a secondary thing for me. I need to limit the amount of colleges I apply to anyways, just so I don't have to pay over 800 bucks just paying admissions fees.

I guess the usual remoteness and the size bothers me more than it should. And also, Yale is a liberal arts college.

Fair enough. I just like the idea of a small college; I'd be a bit fearful of being lost in a crowd of 30,000 people (though I am applying to USC, which has a lot of students).

Why?  It's not like you're required to know all of your peers.  You'll find a group.  As far as a big state school experience goes, it's even better if you can get into Honors Colleges - then you'll be able to find the best of the crowd around you rather than having to have people filter through.  Or you can do things like residential colleges (see, e.g., Michigan State's James Madison College).

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Why?  That's going to be dependent on what classes you take, what your major is, and how motivated you are.  You're not going to be able to get to know your professor regardless of what school you're at if you're in an Intro to Psych class.  Likewise, senior seminars are small everywhere.  If you're going to feel intimidated by professors at a big state school, you're going to be intimidated at a LAC, too (and the reverse is true if you're not going to be).

As far as "intellectual growth" goes, I have no doubt I grew more intellectually at Michigan State than I would've at Swarthmore or Pomona — maybe not Amherst, but that's because I hope I would've fallen in with the linguistics department at UMass.  The most intellectually-growth-stimulating positions are going to be from research (which happens much more at big research institutions than LACs) and internships (where location and connections matter much more than what type of school you're at).

[Psychic Octopus]

I will admit Verin, your ideas are slowly winning me over. You should be an admissions counselor.

Why don't any of you guys have LACs on your lists? Just curious, because to me, they seem really appealing, especially ones like Occidental, Swarthmore, and the Claremonts, because they are within reach of the major cities.

Personally, I just never felt right with any LACs. I considered Sarah Lawrence and Wesleyan, but, I guess it was just a secondary thing for me. I need to limit the amount of colleges I apply to anyways, just so I don't have to pay over 800 bucks just paying admissions fees.

I guess the usual remoteness and the size bothers me more than it should. And also, Yale is a liberal arts college.

Fair enough. I just like the idea of a small college; I'd be a bit fearful of being lost in a crowd of 30,000 people (though I am applying to USC, which has a lot of students).

Why?  It's not like you're required to know all of your peers.  You'll find a group.  As far as a big state school experience goes, it's even better if you can get into Honors Colleges - then you'll be able to find the best of the crowd around you rather than having to have people filter through.  Or you can do things like residential colleges (see, e.g., Michigan State's James Madison College).

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Why?  That's going to be dependent on what classes you take, what your major is, and how motivated you are.  You're not going to be able to get to know your professor regardless of what school you're at if you're in an Intro to Psych class.  Likewise, senior seminars are small everywhere.  If you're going to feel intimidated by professors at a big state school, you're going to be intimidated at a LAC, too (and the reverse is true if you're not going to be).

As far as "intellectual growth" goes, I have no doubt I grew more intellectually at Michigan State than I would've at Swarthmore or Pomona — maybe not Amherst, but that's because I hope I would've fallen in with the linguistics department at UMass.  The most intellectually-growth-stimulating positions are going to be from research (which happens much more at big research institutions than LACs) and internships (where location and connections matter much more than what type of school you're at).

Well, maybe I just buy the line that I would feel less like a number at a smaller school, and that classroom sizes would be smaller on average, meaning that I could have more interaction with professors. Of course, I haven't gone through college like you have, so perhaps I'm very wrong.

But wouldn't you have more abilities for independent research at a small college than at a large university? I remember a big selling point of a lot of LACs was that undergraduates were allowed to conduct their own research, while at universities most of the opportunities were reserved for graduate students. Again, I could be wrong.

(And "intellectual growth" was rhetorical; I think that I could succeed at a number of schools... poor choice of words on my part).

[Kaine for Senate '18]

My UVA classes have 20, 80, 120, 120, and 180 people.  In none of them am I adversely effected, especially because Discussion sections put you in a group of around 20.

[ilikeverin]

I will admit Verin, your ideas are slowly winning me over. You should be an admissions counselor.

I think if I wasn't hoping to go into academia I would have considered some sort of job as an admissions counselor or career counselor.

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Personally, I just never felt right with any LACs. I considered Sarah Lawrence and Wesleyan, but, I guess it was just a secondary thing for me. I need to limit the amount of colleges I apply to anyways, just so I don't have to pay over 800 bucks just paying admissions fees.

I guess the usual remoteness and the size bothers me more than it should. And also, Yale is a liberal arts college.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I just like the idea of a small college; I'd be a bit fearful of being lost in a crowd of 30,000 people (though I am applying to USC, which has a lot of students).
[/quote]

Why?  It's not like you're required to know all of your peers.  You'll find a group.  As far as a big state school experience goes, it's even better if you can get into Honors Colleges - then you'll be able to find the best of the crowd around you rather than having to have people filter through.  Or you can do things like residential colleges (see, e.g., Michigan State's James Madison College).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Why?  That's going to be dependent on what classes you take, what your major is, and how motivated you are.  You're not going to be able to get to know your professor regardless of what school you're at if you're in an Intro to Psych class.  Likewise, senior seminars are small everywhere.  If you're going to feel intimidated by professors at a big state school, you're going to be intimidated at a LAC, too (and the reverse is true if you're not going to be).

As far as "intellectual growth" goes, I have no doubt I grew more intellectually at Michigan State than I would've at Swarthmore or Pomona — maybe not Amherst, but that's because I hope I would've fallen in with the linguistics department at UMass.  The most intellectually-growth-stimulating positions are going to be from research (which happens much more at big research institutions than LACs) and internships (where location and connections matter much more than what type of school you're at).
[/quote]

Well, maybe I just buy the line that I would feel less like a number at a smaller school, and that classroom sizes would be smaller on average, meaning that I could have more interaction with professors. Of course, I haven't gone through college like you have, so perhaps I'm very wrong.
[/quote]

Well, I think you might be right, to some extent, that it's easier to be "just a number" at a big school.  But, the thing is, I think it's easier to be anything at a big school, because the number of students that exist means you have more opportunities to create your own little niche for yourself.  You do have to make sure you're keeping yourself above water a little more at a big school, I think—the fact that there are so many people means that you'll see very little overlap between, say, people in your classes, so you won't get to know many people unless you try.  But the flip side of that, of course, is that you're not stuck with the same people forever if you end up not liking them.

The thing about class sizes, though, isn't very important.  (I remember being on the other side and thinking it mattered a lot!)  Your interactions with professors are generally not going to come through class itself; if you talk to professors, you're going to be stopping by the front of the room after lecture, going in for their office hours, or emailing them.  You can do any of those no matter how big the class is.

One thing I think might be likelier to happen in a big school than a small one, though, is that you'd have classes taught by grad students rather than faculty.  If that matters to you, then that could be a point in favor of SLACs.  That said, though, I don't think it matters too much.  You get basically no pedagogical training as a professor, so more years of experience doesn't necessarily mean better

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Nah, I don't think so.  This will depend a lot on your field and on each individual school.  I certainly don't think that there was any such "reservation" at Michigan State, given the size of our undergraduate research forum (Bonus points if you can find me!) and the fact that there are plenty of ways to get funding as an undergraduate.  I actually started my undergraduate career with research funding (and worked with a Poli Sci professor).  Note that, based on what little I know of other schools, I think MSU is somewhat exceptional about how obsessed with undergraduate research it is, so you should be asking institutional support for research at all these schools.

In the hard sciences, that might be more true... they tend to have a more rigorous lab structure, so cutting out PhD students would mean undergrads "have to" be leading up research.  But I suspect that cutting out PhD students often means that research isn't being done at all.  Take a look at this list of research expenditures at universities prepared by the NSF.  The top ranked LAC I see on there as far as research funding goes is the College of William and Mary at #171.  Furthermore, labs in the social sciences tend to be a bit more loosey-goosey, so there's no such hierarchy; I had no problem waltzing into a few language-related ones and getting some good experience.  And don't understimate PhD students, either; they can often use undergraduates to run experiments for them.  (that'll usually net you a letter of reference signed by the PhD student's supervisor, written by the PhD student, of course )

[TJ in Oregon]

One thing about a larger school that I don't like as much as when I was at a smaller school is that at a smaller school you will know a decent fraction of the people you walk by going to and from places whereas at a huge school, you probably won't know nearly as high a fraction.

I do think that as an undergraduate in a hard science, you have an advantage in getting research at a smaller school because the professor to undergrad ratio is often larger and the school is designed to give you that opportunity as much as it is to teach you. I'm not sure how social science research is structured at all.

[tmthforu94]

I'm going to a school of around 9000 now, which is pretty small. I hate it, and would much rather be going to a huge state school. There are more opportunities, more things to do, and more friends to make.

And this is coming from a kid who graduated in a class of 63.