Greek spending has actually been rising

[Beet]

I realize that it sucks for Southern Europe that they suck. I still think it's wrong to frame this problem as "Germany is too efficient. If they only produced less the world would be better off"

I'm sorry, but I just don't think economics works or should work that way.

I never said that Germany should produce less. Instead German workers should get more, so they are rewarded by their productivity. With regard to things like Hartz IV, if they can't bring down unemployment without relying on external demand, then they haven't really solved the problem with unemployment, just pushed it onto someone else.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And I don't think it's so simple that Europe only has one problem. Europe has multiple problems. To say that everyone should be like Germany does not acknowledge that. The idea that German wages currently reflect its productivity is incorrect. German wages are below German productivity.

[opebo]

I realize that it sucks for Southern Europe that they suck. I still think it's wrong to frame this problem as "Germany is too efficient. If they only produced less the world would be better off"

I'm sorry, but I just don't think economics works or should work that way.

Actually it does work that way.  If a country produces in excess of what it consumes, it creates a huge burden upon other countries to consume that production.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This is precisely where you are wrong, Gustaf.  We have pursued this kind of world for the last thirty years - where wages are subjected to competitive pressures and end up in a downward spiral of deflation.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, dead wrong.  A world of Germanies is a world of Depression and dearth of demand.

[Gustaf]

I realize that it sucks for Southern Europe that they suck. I still think it's wrong to frame this problem as "Germany is too efficient. If they only produced less the world would be better off"

I'm sorry, but I just don't think economics works or should work that way.

I never said that Germany should produce less. Instead German workers should get more, so they are rewarded by their productivity. With regard to things like Hartz IV, if they can't bring down unemployment without relying on external demand, then they haven't really solved the problem with unemployment, just pushed it onto someone else.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And I don't think it's so simple that Europe only has one problem. Europe has multiple problems. To say that everyone should be like Germany does not acknowledge that. The idea that German wages currently reflect its productivity is incorrect. German wages are below German productivity.

Doesn't that amount to the same thing though? If you decrease marginal profit you would presumably push back production.

I agree that there is more than one problem but I don't see the others as relevant to this discussion.

You seem very confident that German wages are too low, but what is this based on? Are they low compared to the US, China or India? They're certainly lower (relative to productivity) than Greece's, but, again, that's more that wages are too high in Greece, or so I suspect.

[Beet]

Doesn't that amount to the same thing though? If you decrease marginal profit you would presumably push back production.

Once again, you only see the supply side. Marginal profit depends on the demand curve as well as the cost of labor.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

My judgement is based on Germany's significant trade surplus. That means that Germany is making more than it is consuming, literally. In Greece, the reverse is true. China's wages are also too low, but the aggregate imbalance is actually less than Germany.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Beet trying to debate Gustaf in this thread reminds me of the heroic, but ultimately futile, task undertaken by Ernest a few days ago when he tried to debate CARLHAYDEN.

[King]

I ate a roasted lamb gyro for dinner.  Fear not Greece, $8.50 is coming your way.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I ate a roasted lamb gyro for dinner.  Fear not Greece, $8.50 is coming your way.

They duped you. Real gyro is made of pork or veal.

[Lief 🗽]

I ate a roasted lamb gyro for dinner.  Fear not Greece, $8.50 is coming your way.

They duped you. Real gyro is made of pork or veal.

whoa seriously?!

America ruins everything...

[Gustaf]

Doesn't that amount to the same thing though? If you decrease marginal profit you would presumably push back production.

Once again, you only see the supply side. Marginal profit depends on the demand curve as well as the cost of labor.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

My judgement is based on Germany's significant trade surplus. That means that Germany is making more than it is consuming, literally. In Greece, the reverse is true. China's wages are also too low, but the aggregate imbalance is actually less than Germany.

Right, but I still think a sudden jump in wages would not compensate itself entirely.

I realize that Germany is making more than it is consuming. My point is this: if we simplify the world a bit, we have Germany exporting and the troubled economies importing. You seem to be assuming the problem is that German wages are too low. Couldn't it be that Greek wages are too high? Given that Germany, in one of the links I posted, is still described as having rather high labour costs and given how they were doing back in the early 00s, I don't think it's given that they're now "too low" by whatever measure. It is undoubtedly true though that a country like Greece is too high, because their productivity growth has been running below wage growth for some time.

That's why it seems reasonable for me to start at that end, rather than at the German end.

But you're very ardently on the demand-side here, I'm really not as much of a supply-sider as I might come off right now.

[Gustaf]

Beet trying to debate Gustaf in this thread reminds me of the heroic, but ultimately futile, task undertaken by Ernest a few days ago when he tried to debate CARLHAYDEN.

I'm sorry, this is an adult conversation involving people who know something. I think you entered the wrong thread.

Seriously, you can't be disproven, run away like a little baby and then come back with some cheap insult. My posts proving you just made up stuff you had no idea about are still there. If you have proper responses to them, go ahead. Otherwise, it's really more appropriate for you to shut up.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Beet trying to debate Gustaf in this thread reminds me of the heroic, but ultimately futile, task undertaken by Ernest a few days ago when he tried to debate CARLHAYDEN.

I'm sorry, this is an adult conversation involving people who know something. I think you entered the wrong thread.

Seriously, you can't be disproven, run away like a little baby and then come back with some cheap insult. My posts proving you just made up stuff you had no idea about are still there. If you have proper responses to them, go ahead. Otherwise, it's really more appropriate for you to shut up.

[Gustaf]

Beet trying to debate Gustaf in this thread reminds me of the heroic, but ultimately futile, task undertaken by Ernest a few days ago when he tried to debate CARLHAYDEN.

I'm sorry, this is an adult conversation involving people who know something. I think you entered the wrong thread.

Seriously, you can't be disproven, run away like a little baby and then come back with some cheap insult. My posts proving you just made up stuff you had no idea about are still there. If you have proper responses to them, go ahead. Otherwise, it's really more appropriate for you to shut up.

See, this is what I mean. Posting funny pictures doesn't win you a debate in economics, since it's about facts and stuff. But that's all right. If posting pictures of Mussolini is what you need to do to feel good about yourself, I won't stop you.

Also, very Woody Allenesque move there.

PS: if you want to be taken seriously, learning how to post words instead of just pictures might be an idea.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Also, very Woody Allenesque move there.

That's the biggest compliment I've ever received. Thanks dude!

[opebo]

I realize that Germany is making more than it is consuming. My point is this: if we simplify the world a bit, we have Germany exporting and the troubled economies importing.... German wages are too low... Greece is too high..

...it seems reasonable for me to start at that end, rather than at the German end.

But you're very ardently on the demand-side here, I'm really not as much of a supply-sider as I might come off right now.

It is in fact extreme supply-sideism, Gustaf to want to start at the 'wages are too high' end rather than the wages are too low end.  Your recommendations are deflationary - infinitely more hazardous than to err on the side of 'wages are too low' and perhaps create a little inflation.

In a world where you have Germanies and Chinas, as well as Greeces and Americas, the problem children are the Germanies and Chinas.  They create a deflationary, depressionary spiral to the bottom.

[Beet]

Right, but I still think a sudden jump in wages would not compensate itself entirely.

I realize that Germany is making more than it is consuming. My point is this: if we simplify the world a bit, we have Germany exporting and the troubled economies importing. You seem to be assuming the problem is that German wages are too low. Couldn't it be that Greek wages are too high?

As I've said, I think both are true. Remember, the question we are asking is whether every country should strive to be like Germany. It is physically impossible for every country to be like Germany, unless you think that countries should manufacture a great deal of products only to dump them into the ocean! On that point I would hope my position is indisputable.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But why must you start at one end or the other? You accuse me of being ardently on the demand-side, but I actually treat both sides as equally bad. You're the one who insists on starting at one end.

What evidence do you have that Greek productivity growth has been running below its wage growth? It's not a question to challenge your premise but I am curious to see what metric you use.

Finally I do not follow that just because Germany had it bad in the early 00s, that it is doing things right today. If you pardon the expression, I think that to some extent they went out of frying pan and into the fire. They traded one problematic situation for another problematic situation, that seemed to solve some problems but has created new problems. Your link seemed to discuss Germany as having high wage growth from reunification until 1994, and the process of adjustment began in the late 1990s. That narrative is not contradictory to my preferred metric of trade balance, because in the 1990s Germany consistently ran a small trade deficit.

[Gustaf]

Right, but I still think a sudden jump in wages would not compensate itself entirely.

I realize that Germany is making more than it is consuming. My point is this: if we simplify the world a bit, we have Germany exporting and the troubled economies importing. You seem to be assuming the problem is that German wages are too low. Couldn't it be that Greek wages are too high?

As I've said, I think both are true. Remember, the question we are asking is whether every country should strive to be like Germany. It is physically impossible for every country to be like Germany, unless you think that countries should manufacture a great deal of products only to dump them into the ocean! On that point I would hope my position is indisputable.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But why must you start at one end or the other? You accuse me of being ardently on the demand-side, but I actually treat both sides as equally bad. You're the one who insists on starting at one end.

What evidence do you have that Greek productivity growth has been running below its wage growth? It's not a question to challenge your premise but I am curious to see what metric you use.

Finally I do not follow that just because Germany had it bad in the early 00s, that it is doing things right today. If you pardon the expression, I think that to some extent they went out of frying pan and into the fire. They traded one problematic situation for another problematic situation, that seemed to solve some problems but has created new problems. Your link seemed to discuss Germany as having high wage growth from reunification until 1994, and the process of adjustment began in the late 1990s. That narrative is not contradictory to my preferred metric of trade balance, because in the 1990s Germany consistently ran a small trade deficit.

I think we're using slightly different definitions. When I say strive to be Germany I don't mean in the sense of running a huge trade surplus. That's obviously impossible. I mean it in the sense of controlling inflation, improve productivity, stimulate industries that can compete globally, etc. Of course, in the case of Germany, this has led to trade surpluses. If other Euro countries did the same Germany's trade surplus might well erode, but I still think everyone would be on average better off.

And I'm not accusing you - since I'm not that much of a supply-sider it's not really an insult. For me, it's a question of problem framing. I don't necessarily mean that Germany should change nothing and Greece should simply become like Germany. Rather, that for me it seems more natural to focus on changing the behaviour of the economy that is going to hell, rather than that of the economy that is doing well. Especially since I think the approach where success is villified and punished is not conducive for creating good economic policy, imo. I think any energy spent by Greece on criticizing or changing Germany has lower marginal return than energy spent on dealing with all of their home-made problems, to put it in silly economic jargon.

I posted a couple of links earlier in the thread, IIRC, where I noted Greek wage increases and productivity increases. They seemed to indicate the pattern I described.

I'm not following your last paragraph entirely. Germany didn't change a problematic situation for another - they traded a problematic situation for themselves for a problematic situation for Greece, no? But then again, I don't fully agree with that either. Had Greece pursued better policies, Greece wouldn't be so badly off (and I think that's the driving factor). I agree though that it does not follow from their earlier problems that they're doing things right now. Merely that it indicates they had to move in the direction they did. They might have moved too far, but I think the marginal effects at that point probably aren't the important stuff in this context.

[Beet]

The crux of the difference at this point I think is that I believe that when there is an imbalance of trade between two countries, whether driven by a differential in relative competitiveness or not, both the creditor and the debtor share responsibility for resolving the situation. It is not the case that only the debtor is at fault.

The reason, rooted in simple identities, is that not everyone can be a creditor. The creditor's performance is dependent on someone else being a debtor. Now what would happen if there were a world of economies in which everyone behaved like a creditor (low wages, high productivity) but not everyone could actually be one? In my opinion this would lead to an economy with a chronic shortage of aggregate demand, needless unemployment, and wages below what could be achieved at a sustainable steady-state.

That is the theory. In practice, large, persistent imbalances between countries can lead to many real world problems. The current problems which Germany is not primarily responsible for, but which it has contributed to inadvertently, is not only Greece's problem, it is also Germany's problem as we now see. Germany is being called to spend lots of money to bail out Greece. Even if Germany refused, it would have to spend lots of money to recapitalize its banks, and in the event of a breakup of the euro, its currency would rapidly appreciate and Germany would again lose competitiveness. Either way it is a headache for everyone. It is even a headache for the United States!

[Beet]

PS, If anyone is interested, this paper will provide many answers about Greece, although admittedly it is a bit technocratic and does not take into account market chaos and street chaos"

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2011/cr11175.pdf

The paper, unfortunately, does not as far as I can tell address the reported rise in Greek primary spending, except to note that the definition excludes money spent by Greece to bail out its own banks on top of interest payments, and that projected spending for the year as of July was expected to be down to 50.4 billion euros from 51.7 billion euros. Total spending is still expected to rise.

The paper is slightly more satisfactory on the question of Greek inflation, noting that tax-adjusted inflation is well below the euro zone average. Productivity has fallen because output has fallen faster than employment, but labor costs have been adjusting downward and Greece has improved its competitive position in the euro zone.

[Gustaf]

PS, If anyone is interested, this paper will provide many answers about Greece, although admittedly it is a bit technocratic and does not take into account market chaos and street chaos"

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2011/cr11175.pdf

The paper, unfortunately, does not as far as I can tell address the reported rise in Greek primary spending, except to note that the definition excludes money spent by Greece to bail out its own banks on top of interest payments, and that projected spending for the year as of July was expected to be down to 50.4 billion euros from 51.7 billion euros. Total spending is still expected to rise.

The paper is slightly more satisfactory on the question of Greek inflation, noting that tax-adjusted inflation is well below the euro zone average. Productivity has fallen because output has fallen faster than employment, but labor costs have been adjusting downward and Greece has improved its competitive position in the euro zone.

Right, I wasn't talking about what Greece is doing now but what they did leading up to the current situation. One would hope they wouldn't still be losing competitiveness. (although given the track record it might be wise to not put too much stock in statistics out of Greece until a couple of years have passed...)

I do think we've reached the point of disagreement, at least. It seems to come down to a demand versus supply thing and wiser men than the two of us have disagreed on that, so I'm fine with agreeing to disagree there.

If you do want to carry the discussion into that general theme I'm fine with that too, though. But it wouldn't really be about Greece and Germany anymore.

I did like your debtor creditor thing though. What I would say in response though is that if we imagine the borders being closed and both countries suddenly falling into complete autarky, I think the creditor would still be better off than the debtor. Do you disagree?

[Beet]

I don't disagree. The debtor would re-adjust through inflation/demand destruction, permanently raising the cost of living, while the creditor could adjust through Keynesian stimulus without as much dislocation in the price level.

But keep in mind, that depends on the creditor choosing to adopt enough Keynesian stimulus to bring its demand in balance with supply. If it did not choose this policy course, it would not necessarily be better off than the debtor, no. In any case, Germany has not chosen Keynesianism since the Chancellorship of Willy Brandt, so it is not likely to choose so today without a significant push, which is rather unfortunate for the future of Europe.

[King]

I ate a roasted lamb gyro for dinner.  Fear not Greece, $8.50 is coming your way.

They duped you. Real gyro is made of pork or veal.

This is the most disturbing news I've heard all day.

[Beet]

Here are some additional facts regarding the Greek situation.

What I gathered from this is the following. The State Budget is composed of Ordinary expenditures and Public Spending.
(1) The deficit is up to 15.571 billion euros vs 12.449 billion euros from the first 7 months of 2011 vs 2010, or by 3.1 billion euros.
(2) Net revenues were 26.846 billion euros in the first 7 months of the year, down 6.4% from last year. (By my naive calculation this implies net revenues of 28.682 billion euros for the first 7 months of last year). The total loss of revenue is 1.8 billion euros.
(3) Expenditures in the ordinary budget increased 7.1%, excluding interest payments they increased by 4.8%, or 1.39 billion euros, due in part to
(a) "increased grants to Social Security Funds as a result of the reduced receipts from social security contributions" by 1.69 billion euros. This item alone is responsible for more than the entire increase in primary spending, but I don't see how it is strictly a spending item. It seems to be saying they are forced to make up for a shortfall in revenues from loss of social security contributions. Can someone explain how this works?
(b) "increased grant to Employment Agency (OAED) for the payment of unemployment benefits by 301 million Euros." This makes sense.
(c) increased grants to "hospitals by 779 million euros (535 million euros for the year’s 2011 procurements expenditure and 244 million euros for the settlement of past years obligations from procurement)." Don't they use accrual basis of accounting? Jeez, with their credibility problems you would think so.
(4) Additionally we get this gem. "Public Investment Budget (P.I.B.) expenditures declined by 37.6% or 1.581 billion Euros." If you subtract the fall in public investment from the rise in ordinary primary spending, I get a total fall in spending of 191 million euros, excluding interest payments. So perhaps things are not as bad as the thread title would suggest. Still, a fall in spending by only 191 million euros is clearly not sufficient.

Further, one sees from the IMF's own study that cutting public investment is the most damaging way to attempt austerity.

So basically, the technocrats at the IMF already know this is the worst way to cut spending, yet Greece under their tutelage has primarily cut spending in this area. It appears that the difficulty arises from the relative ease of having the theoretical idea of what is the best way to do things versus the actual real world implementation of ideas into reality. In the real world, cutting public investment is probably the least controversial, while cutting transfer payments is the most politically difficult. Unfortunately the economists' models do not appear to control for this.

[Beet]

Ouch.

At risk of this becoming a slightly more informative version of the JJ thread, I am double posting a journalist's twitterstream of the PM's address yesterday:

Papandreou finishes his speech saying: "We will succeed together". #Greece #gfc2
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
2 major announcements by Papandreou: plan to distribute state land to young aspiring farmers/search for oil&gas in Ionian & S. Crete #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou concludes address
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: I 've said it before, I'm not here for my position or to get re-elected, I'm here so that we can succeed together #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: to those hoping that if Greece leaves the euro, they can buy up the country cheaply, every Greek will stand opposed #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: I ask that all political parties act responsibly.... It's not me pleading. It's the motherland #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou:Any bank that needs recapitalisation, this will be done through common stock so the ppl can benefit from future profits #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: I ask the banks to respect the support they've received from the state & the ppl. The state supports them.
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: I know our youth want to leave the country... I understand them... but I ask you to not give up... the country needs you #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: I look around me and see ppl of my generation... we have given huge burdens to the youth. We owe the youth a lot #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: We can make it and we can prove those seeing Greece as a failure wrong #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: I am determined to fight to the end against everything and everything holding Greece back (ref to trade unionists, closed shops)
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou implicitly lashes out against highly remunerated public-sector workers, mega-haves & newspaper/TV owners #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: we hope that those who have made money here will participate in our efforts, like rich ppl abroad asking to be taxed more #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Many of you asking about the "land redistribution to youth who want to go into agriculture" thing. I have no details but it's public lands
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
@
@Old_Holborn Don't get excited. It sounded like minor policy to redistribute state agri land to unemployed youth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou outlines expenditure programmes of 3.5b euro to combat youth & women's unemployment #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
I stand corrected: search for oil & gas will be south of Crete, not "around" Crete as previously tweeted. Apologies #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Correction: Papandreou says Greece to look for natural gas AND oil in Ionian and Crete #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: I announce that Greece is to begin searching for natural gas in the Ionian sea and around Crete #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Ha, just got the little theme the speech-writer got into the Papandreou address. He outline policy, follows w "can we do it? of course!"
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: tomorrow we start distribution of land to young people who want to go into agriculture #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
After tourism bit, Papandreou turns to agriculture #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: we are aiming at China and India, as well as the US, for tourism #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: we are fighting against entrenched interests... we need every single citizen's help (weak applause) #deth
12 hours ago

dexpatia Philomila Tsoukala
 by MatinaStevis@
@MatinaStevis he also said "how will growth return if deposits don't return, deposits that today...are returning"!!!!!
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou outlines improvement in exports, tourism figures in H1 2011 #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou now outlines expenditure cuts & revenue performance in 2010 #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: Who will fund our growth if our banks can't reach the market to borrow? #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
First break for ovation for Papandreou at "Yes, we can make it" line. #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: we will not allow Greece to become the scapegoat for problems in Europe #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: at the point where Eurozone stands right now, every time we delay, any hesitation we show, puts the country in peril #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: despite the deeper-than-expected recession this year, we will stay the course... to achieve a primary surplus #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: we are prepared to make more decisions, do whatever it takes to ensure the country stands tall #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: we are fully determined determined to stick to our end of the deal. Starting w sticking to the July 21st decisions #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: the decisions we made are unique in the history of Europe, we cannot abandon it and waste our sacrifices #deth
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: we made decisions that have guaranteed our financing needs until 2020 & improvement of debt profile through extension to 30 yrs
12 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: we are giving a huge fight, seriously negotiating for our collective and national interest #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: We decided to fight to avoid a disaster, to avoid default and to make sure we stay in the euro #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: ...the banking sector that did not always manage the national wealth in a transparent and correct manner #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou recounts run-up to 2010 deficit revelation, cites bad statistics and chronic overspending & weak revenues #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou: reforms... are an upward struggle among a international thunderstorm. Our priority is to save the country from default #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
I refuse to translate rhetorical crap. Will only be live-tweeting policy-related stuff & significant statements from Papandreou #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou takes to the stage to give keynote economic policy address amid rumours of default. #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
A few moments before Papandreou sets out his economic policy in keynote Thessaloniki address, police violently clash w protesters #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
I believe it's the president of the Thessaloniki expo speaking now, ahead of PM Papandreou. You can watch it here government.gov.gr #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou makes his way through the hall to the stage, lots of handshaking, address commences #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Reminder: live-tweeting Papandreou address on the Greek economy, which is starting now in Thessaloniki #deth
13 hours ago

MatinaStevis Matina Stevis
Papandreou arrives at hall accompanied by his wife, welcomed by standing ovation by most party chieftains #deth
13 hours ago

[1] A lot of impressive chest thumping from a guy who only managed to cut ex-interest spending by 191 mln.

[2] And yes, Matina Stevis is hot, I would totally do her.

[Beet]

There is evidence of growing civil disobedience against tax payments in Greece.

The only way the government can save itself now is by making its deficit targets statutory - a step it should have taken long ago. In other words, if the country is missing its deficit targets, then automatic spending cuts are immediately implemented without another vote by Parliament.

[Torie]

Why not let Greece default, and just kick them out of the EU? Just asking.

Tiny Greece seems to be holding everyone hostage as it were, and it's annoying. They need to get a memo that the penalties will be severe. Just cut them loose is my visceral reaction, so tell me why that is unwise. It may well be, but I want to start a discussion on this. I want to get educated. Thanks.