2012 NDP leadership convention

[minionofmidas]

“supporting Brian, who doesn’t have a seat, over Tom, the man they have worked with. I don’t think it’s accidental.”  I dunno, this would be a much stronger if they'd also worked with Topp, wouldn't it?

[Peter the Lefty]

Classy Ed, Classy... seems like the membership hasn't liked your annointed choice Topp and now you look desperate. I love the guy, but Jeez Ed for a guy who doesn't want to be the liberals this sure is a liberal thing to do.

I would have to agree with you there.  That was an incredibly low thing for him to do.  Frankly, in fact, he was simply lying.  He said that Mulcair was acting as if Jack hadn't modernized the party, which is patently untrue.  Repeatedly, Mulcair has said that modernizing was what Jack was all about, and he wants to continue it.  He also said that Mulcair is talking about moving the party closer to the center, which is also completely false.  He's always saying that it's about moving the center closer to the NDP.  Having said that, I also would have to agree that Mulcair's "1950's boilerplate of social democracy" are disturbing, as is his anti-"Laurier Avenue" remarks.  

I really hope, to be honest, that Mulcair pulls an Hollande by running on a moderate platform to get his party's confidence and then running on a left-wing platform in the next election.  I can't see why raising taxes on the wealthy is SO taboo for him to talk about.  If you can win elections talking about it here in the U.S., you can do it in Canada, dammit.  

Mulcair also needs to explain his funding.  He's getting money from Bay Street and from the Israel lobby.  Until he explains those, I'd have to say that my hypothetical ballot would not have his name at the top.  

[RogueBeaver]

“supporting Brian, who doesn’t have a seat, over Tom, the man they have worked with. I don’t think it’s accidental.”  I dunno, this would be a much stronger if they'd also worked with Topp, wouldn't it?

They probably have worked with Topp, but not as closely as they have with Mulcair. By all accounts Topp has a much more Dipper personality than Mulcair. That's to say he's congenial and witty but also capable of taking and throwing punches. Having followed Mulcair since his PLQ days, I honestly don't see that man's temperament (not the anger but the sheer combativeness) flying in a party which levies 4-digit fines for generic political insults against a fellow candidate. You don't want a "pleasant vegetable" (sorry Dewar fans, but he and LeBland are peas in a pod that way) facing Harper either.

[RogueBeaver]

Mulcair profile. Apparently he was originally a Dipper, sort of like how Rae was originally a Grit.  IMO Mulcair is Iggy, Cullen is Dion, dunno who Rae is.

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/1147466--ndp-leadership-thomas-mulcair-draws-on-experience-as-quebec-environment-minister

Agreed.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1147616--hebert-broadbent-has-burdened-the-next-ndp-leader

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Being an Elder Statesman has only a few privileges and the absolute right to sound off is one of them.

[RogueBeaver]

Laurier Avenue is probably code for "I'm going to 'take care of' anyone there if they try and push me around."

As for running on an explicitly left-wing platform in 2015, please do. It will make our Grit friends' job so much easier. Plus, IIRC Mulcair has cap-and-trade (though he's careful to use the 'carbon pricing' euphemism) in his platform. We'll have just as much fun with that as we did in 2008.

[RogueBeaver]

Hopefully Funke posts again soon and deciphers the numbers for we non-Dippers.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1147821--ndp-leadership-fundraising-data-shows-the-state-of-the-race

Cullen profile.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1147780--ndp-leadership-nathan-cullen-a-pragmatist-at-heart

[RogueBeaver]

Mulcair gets the Star endorsement.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/1147847--thomas-mulcair-is-the-ndp-s-best-choice-to-win-power

[Hatman 🍁]

Good to see Mulcair's first priority is caucus solidarity. It is relieving some of my worries about supporting him.

[Hatman 🍁]

BTW, I'm looking for a place to crash next weekend for the convention. If there's any takers, please PM me.  Right now I'm trying my luck through couchsurfing, the most left wing way to travel.

[RogueBeaver]

Good to see Mulcair's first priority is caucus solidarity. It is relieving some of my worries about supporting him.

Broadbent has made what was a quietly divisive race openly divisive, so it'll take a while for those wounds to heal. Personally I think Cullen still has a shot for the same reason as Clark and Dion: he has the fewest enemies.

[minionofmidas]

BTW, I'm looking for a place to crash next weekend for the convention. If there's any takers, please PM me.  Right now I'm trying my luck through couchsurfing, the most left wing way to travel.

The most leftwing way to travel is sleeping under the bridge after walking to Toronto on foot.

[Peter the Lefty]

Good to see Mulcair's first priority is caucus solidarity. It is relieving some of my worries about supporting him.

I hope he makes Libby the foreign affairs critic, and Dewar can replace him as Opposition House leader.  I know it won't happen, but it would be nice.

[RogueBeaver]

Good to see Mulcair's first priority is caucus solidarity. It is relieving some of my worries about supporting him.

I hope he makes Libby the foreign affairs critic, and Dewar can replace him as Opposition House leader.  I know it won't happen, but it would be nice.

You want a Truther in Foreign Affairs? Okaay...

[Peter the Lefty]

Good to see Mulcair's first priority is caucus solidarity. It is relieving some of my worries about supporting him.

I hope he makes Libby the foreign affairs critic, and Dewar can replace him as Opposition House leader.  I know it won't happen, but it would be nice.

You want a Truther in Foreign Affairs? Okaay...

I didn't know until now that she's a truther, but I just read her statement (that the U.S. government may have been involved), and frankly, I agree with her, as an American, that there is strong reason to believe Bush ad Cheney were complicit.  And Mulcair himself appears to have flirted with Bin Laden truthism himself, if you recall, before he cleaned it up and "clarified."  But like I said, however, I know it won't happen.  I just think that someone as passionately pro-Palestinian as Libby will be required to balance out a leader who is either an "ardent supporter of Israel in all situations and circumstances" or who just can't whip up the courage to speak the truth due to the demographics of his riding.  I suppose Dewar has been satisfiably pro-Palestinian himself, though.  Mulcair had better at least keep Libby as deputy leader and Health critic.  And I really hope they can manage to start fresh afterwards or at least bury the hatchet.  But I also doubt that'll ever happen.  Mulcair will never get along with her, or Topp, and definitely never with Broadbent (for very understandable reasons).  I also hope he manages to control his temper during his tenure as leader just as well as he has through the leadership campaign.  If he ever lurches towards Blairism, I hope the Dippers kick him out and replace him with Megan Leslie (hopefully giving her enough time to improve her French enough to keep Quebec). 

[RogueBeaver]

I'd say Peter Julian would be a better choice for deputy. Israel isn't a hot-button issue in our daily politic, BTW.

Blairism: Not happening. Mulcair will be on probation- even his supporters on this very forum are very clear on this point vis-a-vis explicit Third Way politics. Among other reasons, because then you're treading on Liberal social policy.

[RogueBeaver]

Den Tandt's take. IMO, what Broadbent said wasn't news, but rather how he said it. Certainly has the right to speak his mind though.

http://www.canada.com/business/Broadbent%2Battack%2BMulcair%2Bshows%2Bappalling%2Bjudgment/6321367/story.html

[Peter the Lefty]

I'd say Peter Julian would be a better choice for deputy. Israel isn't a hot-button issue in our daily politic, BTW.

Blairism: Not happening. Mulcair will be on probation- even his supporters on this very forum are very clear on this point vis-a-vis explicit Third Way politics. Among other reasons, because then you're treading on Liberal social policy.

I know, but it would be nice to have a pro-Palestinian Canadian government, to help balance out the influence of the seemingly perpetually and disgustingly pro-Israel superpower next door.  Plus, making her foreign affairs critic would mainly be a much deserved apology to Libby for how he treated her before.  She should at least stay on as leader.

And if Blairism will ruin an NDP leader, why didn't it ruin Gary Doer, Roy Romanow, etc?

[RogueBeaver]

I agree with Tim Harper, that if Mulcair wins Davies will decamp to BC provincial politics where Dix will certainly welcome her.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1148247--tim-harper-on-ndp-leadership-race-thomas-mulcair-s-opponents-have-helped-him

I didn't say it would ruin him, I said it would be divisive because the membership a) doesn't want it b) doesn't trust him. Layton "modernised" the party- i.e. moved it centrewards, but was able to do that because Dippers trusted him. Mulcair wants to go further than many people want and isn't trusted, ergo his current situation.


Two other examples: in his first 2 terms Harper and Flaherty engaged in stimulus and deficit spending because of the minority situation and to a degree public demand. But we Tory base voters knew that this was a tactical adjustment which would disappear with a majority, plus we'd get major policy rewards later. Which is precisely what's happening. Had it been, say, Peter MacKay, we would have been much more suspicious for obvious reasons.

Ditto for the Liberals. Brison would not have had nearly the latitude he's gotten on economic policy had he somehow run for leader, since their base doesn't trust him to do those things without supervision. Since he has Rae supervising him, they're more than happy to let him policymake away.

[RogueBeaver]

I'd say Peter Julian would be a better choice for deputy. Israel isn't a hot-button issue in our daily politic, BTW.

Blairism: Not happening. Mulcair will be on probation- even his supporters on this very forum are very clear on this point vis-a-vis explicit Third Way politics. Among other reasons, because then you're treading on Liberal social policy.

I know, but it would be nice to have a pro-Palestinian Canadian government, to help balance out the influence of the seemingly perpetually and disgustingly pro-Israel superpower next door.  Plus, making her foreign affairs critic would mainly be a much deserved apology to Libby for how he treated her before.  She should at least stay on as leader.

And if Blairism will ruin an NDP leader, why didn't it ruin Gary Doer, Roy Romanow, etc?

Aren't Sask and Manitoba really Conservative provinces?

Manitoba yes, SK has had only 3 non-NDP governments in the postwar era. Thatcher's Liberals (the last Prairie Liberal party to die), Devine's PCs and Wall's SK Party.

[Hatman 🍁]

I'd say Peter Julian would be a better choice for deputy. Israel isn't a hot-button issue in our daily politic, BTW.

Blairism: Not happening. Mulcair will be on probation- even his supporters on this very forum are very clear on this point vis-a-vis explicit Third Way politics. Among other reasons, because then you're treading on Liberal social policy.

I know, but it would be nice to have a pro-Palestinian Canadian government, to help balance out the influence of the seemingly perpetually and disgustingly pro-Israel superpower next door.  Plus, making her foreign affairs critic would mainly be a much deserved apology to Libby for how he treated her before.  She should at least stay on as leader.

And if Blairism will ruin an NDP leader, why didn't it ruin Gary Doer, Roy Romanow, etc?

Romanow might be considered 3rd way, but Doer? He's just a moderate. But Romanow has to be the most right wing NDP premier in Canadian history. And look who he endorsed. Wasn't Mulcair!

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This conversation is pretty amusing given the fact that Layton's platform last year was well to the right of Blair's in 1997

[lilTommy]

This conversation is pretty amusing given the fact that Layton's platform last year was well to the right of Blair's in 1997

That seems so long ago to me , how so? can you give us a little comparison please?

Alos, there is all kinds of push back in the media about Broadbents "moment", and Mulcair taking the high road... he really has done a good job of keeping his infamous (which i don't buy) fury in check... yes this is something new to the NDP but who says new blood and a winning character can't do some good. I am hearing some people say Mulcair did a 180 on the parties drug policy? i can't find anyting that says that? Its probably not a huge vote changer for most, but some in the youth wing might not like that too much, in fact i don't like it that much!

[Peter the Lefty]

I'd say Peter Julian would be a better choice for deputy. Israel isn't a hot-button issue in our daily politic, BTW.

Blairism: Not happening. Mulcair will be on probation- even his supporters on this very forum are very clear on this point vis-a-vis explicit Third Way politics. Among other reasons, because then you're treading on Liberal social policy.

I know, but it would be nice to have a pro-Palestinian Canadian government, to help balance out the influence of the seemingly perpetually and disgustingly pro-Israel superpower next door.  Plus, making her foreign affairs critic would mainly be a much deserved apology to Libby for how he treated her before.  She should at least stay on as leader.

And if Blairism will ruin an NDP leader, why didn't it ruin Gary Doer, Roy Romanow, etc?

Romanow might be considered 3rd way, but Doer? He's just a moderate. But Romanow has to be the most right wing NDP premier in Canadian history. And look who he endorsed. Wasn't Mulcair!

Doer?  I thought he explicitly endorsed Thirdism.  And yes, Romanow endorsed Topp, which makes it amusing to hear him accuse Mulcair of it.  But Dominic Cardy has gotten away with explicit admiration of Tony Blair and even Gerhard Schroder, and the NB NDP hasn't kicked him out.

[DL]

The NB NDP is so small, they can't really afford to kick anyone out. They are probably glad that Cardy is willing to lead them despite almost no salary and no seat for the time being. Beggars can't be choosers!