DC Voting Rights

[DumbStupidRedneck]

I said no.  DC is one big ghetto that doesnt deserve voting rights.  They want to ban guns but they have the worst crime rate in the nation.  If we allow them to vote we will have to allow Guam and Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands to vote to.

[Frodo]

Give the residential areas of DC to Montgomery (NW and SW -except across the Anacostia River) and Prince George's (NE and SE -including all areas east and south of the Anacostia River) counties in Maryland, and apportion representation accordingly.  It's a pity that idea doesn't have more support out in the real world....

 

[jimrtex]

Give the residential areas of DC to Montgomery (NW and SW -except across the Anacostia River) and Prince George's (NE and SE -including all areas east and south of the Anacostia River) counties in Maryland, and apportion representation accordingly.  It's a pity that idea doesn't have more support out in the real world....

Or simply make it a city like Baltimore (city).

The Virginia part of DC was originally part of Fairfax County.  When it was retroceded to Virginia it was formed into Alexandria County.  Alexandria County was renamed to Arlington County when part split off to form Alexandria independent city.

[minionofmidas]

I agree, DC sould be given statehood.

The only reason you guys agree is because it would give the Democrats two more Senate seats...LOL

I've lived there...you don't want this city to provide ANYTHING to the Federal Government in terms of representation.

It's a scary plae, but that's no reason to screw them over.

Is it as scary as, say, Utah?

Okay, I got a compromise. Continue screwing over DC, but accord the same legal status to Utah.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Strip the people in DC besides the senators/reps/federal officials of voting rights. It'd make a DC city government not so corrupt.

[Padfoot]

Strip the people in DC besides the senators/reps/federal officials of voting rights. It'd make a DC city government not so corrupt.

How do you figure?  Without locally elected officials the entire burden of running the city would fall on Congress and we all know how squeaky clean they are .

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Can congress really be worse than the city government which is a kleptocracy out of third world levels(DC falls into the same catagory as detroit, Newark, NO, Gary)?

[Kaine for Senate '18]

The Constitution is clear when it comes to DC.  No Senators, and no Congressman, and that's final.

[Padfoot]

The Constitution is clear when it comes to DC.  No Senators, and no Congressman, and that's final.

The Constitution was also clear when it made specific provisions under which it can be amended.  So in truth, the Constitution is never "final."  It is rather in a constant state of flux in which it could remain the same for centuries or be amended multiple times a week.

[jimrtex]

Following cession by Virginia and Maryland of the territory that became the District of Columbia, residents in those areas were permitted to continue to vote in Virginia and Maryland elections, not only for representatives, but for presidential electors, governors, and state legislators.

There are no persons still living from the time when the area was part of the neighboring states, so why not permit DC residents to designate their State for voting purposes.  Many residents have strong ties to their former states, since their living in the district is associated either directly or indirectly with operation of the federal government.  Others may choose a nearby state, particularly Maryland.

So how about this idea:

Registered voters in the District of Columbia may designate their State for voting purposes.  A voter may not change their designation more than once in any two year period ending on December 31 in an even-numbered year.

Voters who designate a State may vote in all federal elections (representative, senator, and presidential electors), all State executive and judicial elections, and all statewide referendums. 

A State may permit DC voters to vote in local elections.  If a State does not permit DC voters to vote in local elections, the DC voters may vote in local DC elections.

For purposes of the apportionment of representatives, the resident population of the district will be allocated on a pro rata basis according to the States designated by the DC voters.   After an initial designation period, a new apportionment will be made (based on 435 representatives).  No state shall lose representatives on the basis of this new apportionment.  If a state gains a representative as a result of this apportionment, they may:
  (1) Redistrict.
  (2) Provide for the at large election of the additional representative.
  (3) Permit DC voters who designated the State to constitute a new congressional district.

For all States not adjacent to DC (all but Maryland and Virginia), DC voters will be considered to reside at the State capitol for purposes of determining residence for district races.  A State may permit DC voters to designate a locality or place of residence other than the State capitol.

The 48 non-adjacent States are required to provide at least one in-person polling place for their DC voters.

For Virginia and Maryland, each DC voters' residence will be treated as if the district were part of the territory of the respective states.

For purposes of drawing congressional, legislative and other district populations, the resident population in each area of the district shall be allocated on a pro rata basis according to the States designated by the DC voters in that area.

Virginia and Maryland are required to provide appropriate in-person polling places for their DC voters.

Voters who do not designate a State may vote for the congressional delegate, DC presidential electors and local district officials.

If fewer than 10% of DC voters do not designate a State, their designation will be set to that of the State that is most designated by other DC voters.   No presidential electors will be appointed for the district.

If between 10% and 1/3 of DC voters do not designate a State, one presidential elector will be appointed.  If between 1/3 and 2/3 of DC voters do not designate a State, two presidential electors will be chosen.

[Padfoot]

The above proposal opens up too many windows for DC residents to gerrymander themselves into competitive states or districts.  If DC resident were to ever vote in state elections they should be for either Maryland or a new state encompassing all residential, commercial, and industrial areas not directly associated with the business of the federal government.

To me these are the acceptable options for DC ranked in order of desirability:

1. Statehood.  "New Washington" and The District of Columbia become separate entities.  The former would consist of all residential areas and private businesses; the latter would consist of all national monuments, museums, and federal government buildings.

2. Constitutional amendment for full voting rights in Congress and equal treatment as a state for apportionment purposes.

3. Partial retrocession to Maryland in which DC voters are counted as residents of Maryland for the purposes of Congressional apportionment, the drawing of Maryland congressional districts, and all other federal elections.  It would be mandatory for one US House district in Maryland to contain either the entirety of the old DC within its boundaries or be located entirely within the old DC boundaries.  DC would lose its EVs.  DC residents would not vote in Maryland state or local elections.

4. Full retrocession to Maryland with the exception of National Monuments, White House, Capital, ect.  Washington would become a regular city in Maryland and all residents would be considered full citizens of Maryland.  DC would lose its EVs.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Following cession by Virginia and Maryland of the territory that became the District of Columbia, residents in those areas were permitted to continue to vote in Virginia and Maryland elections, not only for representatives, but for presidential electors, governors, and state legislators.

I presume that was true only for the period 1790-1800, after the cession, but before the District became the seat of government.

[jimrtex]

The above proposal opens up too many windows for DC residents to gerrymander themselves into competitive states or districts.

I don't think it would happen.  Most would opt for Maryland, with perhaps a significant share choosing Virginia.  Others might pick their original home state.  Many might prefer not to designate a state, in which case they would continue to vote for the non-voting delegate and the presidential electors only.  If 30%+ of the voters opt for Maryland, it would result in an apportionment of another CD to Maryland, which would create a district they could dominate.   

The district only had 220,000 votes cast in 2004.  I doubt that you are going to get an effective number to switch their designation to some other state simply to swing what is perceived to be a close election.

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DC is the capital of the United States.  Why should residents who work in a congressional office, or cover the government for their home town newspaper have to vote in Maryland?

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How about combining Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia, Delaware, and the district, minus the Mall into a single state?

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Why should DC residents be excluded from voting for a governor or legislatures?  The United States is a federal union.   Why should they be excluded from voting for the government of one of the members of that union?

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Besides 3, would lead to 4.

[jimrtex]

Following cession by Virginia and Maryland of the territory that became the District of Columbia, residents in those areas were permitted to continue to vote in Virginia and Maryland elections, not only for representatives, but for presidential electors, governors, and state legislators.

I presume that was true only for the period 1790-1800, after the cession, but before the District became the seat of government.

Sure.  But I suspect that if the federal government had simply let voters to continue to vote in Virginia and Maryland, that no one would have complained.  In 1800, the population of the district was about 14,000; with 6,000 south of the river.  If you exclude females, children, and slaves, you might have 1 or 2,000; and many of those might not have been qualifed to vote.

[Padfoot]

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DC is the capital of the United States.  Why should residents who work in a congressional office, or cover the government for their home town newspaper have to vote in Maryland?

Its called absentee voting.  If a congressmen from Hawaii who spends the majority of their time in DC can still vote and be elected from Hawaii then so could any journalists or congressional employees.  In fact, I'm sure many of them already do this.

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How about combining Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia, Delaware, and the district, minus the Mall into a single state?[/quote]

Your sarcasm here obviously implies you think this is a horrible idea but lends no hints as to why.

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Why should DC residents be excluded from voting for a governor or legislatures?  The United States is a federal union.   Why should they be excluded from voting for the government of one of the members of that union?[/quote]

Most DC and Maryland residents are generally opposed to the idea of full retrocession.  Maryland really has no desire to take on a city with high crime and poverty rates.  DC residents see themselves as having a unique identity from Maryland since they have been separated for 200 years.  This is just my idea of a possible compromise that would allow DC residents to have an equal voice in the federal government.

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Besides 3, would lead to 4.
[/quote]

That's probably true but I think 3 could serve as a first step in a possible transition period in which DC is slowly integrated into Maryland eventually leading to 4.

[jimrtex]

DC is the capital of the United States.  Why should residents who work in a congressional office, or cover the government for their home town newspaper have to vote in Maryland?

Its called absentee voting.  If a congressmen from Hawaii who spends the majority of their time in DC can still vote and be elected from Hawaii then so could any journalists or congressional employees.  In fact, I'm sure many of them already do this.

Congressmen maintain a residence in the home state, and spend enough time there that they actually use it.  They have a recess so that they can campaign in the home state and vote in person.  Regular citizens might not be able to maintain two residences, or perhaps simply don't think about it in time.  But the district should have an extraordinary number of persons who retain a connection to their home state.

You could do like for overseas citizens, who vote in their state of last residence.  But this would complicate matters for ordinary residents of the district, who either have lived their all their life, and their parents lives, and so on; or perhaps lived in some other state for a short while before moving back to Washington. 

Letting people designate their state simplifies matter.  If I wasn't clear, registration would be done by the federal government, who would then transmit the list of voters who designated each state to the state election officials.  This is similar to the requirement that States accept the federal registration form for overseas voters.

Of course you can simply point a gun at everyone's head and tell them to march out to Silver Springs and vote there.  But it simply isn't necessary.  Most will voluntarily vote in Maryland, or accept that they can only vote for a delegate and presidential electors.

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How about combining Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia, Delaware, and the district, minus the Mall into a single state?[/quote]
Your sarcasm here obviously implies you think this is a horrible idea but lends no hints as to why.
[/quote]
DC has less population than each of Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Fairfax counties.  So a "New Washington" should encompass more area.   I thought perhaps a 50 mile radius.  But why stop there?  Any of the areas that didn't want to join New Washington could be annexed to Kentucky or North Carolina or Pennsylvania.

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Why should DC residents be excluded from voting for a governor or legislatures?  The United States is a federal union.   Why should they be excluded from voting for the government of one of the members of that union?[/quote]
Most DC and Maryland residents are generally opposed to the idea of full retrocession.  Maryland really has no desire to take on a city with high crime and poverty rates.  DC residents see themselves as having a unique identity from Maryland since they have been separated for 200 years.  This is just my idea of a possible compromise that would allow DC residents to have an equal voice in the federal government.[/quote]
Why compromise?   My proposal gives DC residents a voice in the State of their choice as well.  The problem is not that they can't vote in federal elections, it is that they can't vote in any State elections, including those for choosing the representatives of the States in Congress.

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Besides 3, would lead to 4.
[/quote]
That's probably true but I think 3 could serve as a first step in a possible transition period in which DC is slowly integrated into Maryland eventually leading to 4.
[/quote]
Under my plan, DC voters would be voting for the Maryland governor, legislators, etc., which would increase the call for retrocession.

[Padfoot]

Most congressional employees come from the same state served by their boss which is why many end up running for Congress when their boss retires.  I doubt there are very many people living in DC who have a strong connection to their "home state" given that the city has lost over 200,000 residents since 1950.  The majority of DC residents are probably lifelong residents, most of whom strongly object to being "reunited" with Maryland.

As for your concerns about the lack of population, DC has roughly 70,000 more people than the state of Wyoming and is only about 50,000 short of Vermont and 60,000 away from North Dakota.  So if it were to become a new state it's not like it has such a small population that it would be overrepresented in comparison to other states.

Furthermore, elections for the US House and Senate are federal elections because US Representative and Senators are part of the federal government.  The problem is that DC has no elected representation in the federal government.  Most DC citizens are satisfied with voting for their city council and mayor and don't feel short changed because they don't vote for  a state-level legislator or governor.

Finally, your plan from earlier would likely have to be passed via Constitutional Amendment and if you're going to pass an amendment to grant DC residents voting rights in Congress, why not just allow them to have voting representation from the district itself?  It seems silly to go through the whole amendment process just to give them a diluted vote in another state's elections.

[jimrtex]

According to the 2006 ACS,

Of DC residents:

40% born in DC
46% born in other state.
4% foreign born, naturalized
9% foreign born, non-citizen

But this is strongly age dependent.  Among children 0-5, and 5-17, 77% and 76% were born in the district.  Among adults 18-24, 30% were born in the district, and among those 25-34, 27% were born in the district.  The peak for adults is 45-54, 42%, and then it declines to under 25% among those over 60.

Only 13% of whites, who constitute 34% of the district population, were born there.  Even among blacks, only 61% were born in the district.

Of residents 1 year an older, 9.9% lived outside the district, one year earlier.  2.4% were from within the DC metro area, 6.1% from other states, and 1.4%.

You misunderstand my concern about population.  There are 100s of county-like areas with more population than Wyoming, Vermont, and North Dakota.  I am not advocating statehood for these county-like areas; and I don't think you are either.  The city of Washington, currently located in the District of Columbia, is more like its neighboring counties of Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Fairfax than it is like the state of Wyoming or Vermont.   Washington, Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Fairfax counties are simply places where people who work for the federal government, directly or indirectly sleep at night.

The federal government is so named because the United State is a federal union of sovereign States.  You don't here the people in France or the UK referring to their government as federal government.  Representatives and Senators are chosen by the citizens of their respective states.

My proposal would let the residents of DC participate in all levels of government.  If they choose not to participate in the elections for the governor and legislature, that is their right.  I suspect that if Washington City had 15 delegates and 5 senators in the Maryland General Assembly, they would vote for them.   BTW, 20 of the 141 Delegates in the Maryland HoD were born in Washington, DC.  It is an artificial boundary, no more significant than the one that used to split Virginia.

Why would my plan have to be passed via Constitutional Amendment?  Congress has provided that persons resident on federal enclaves can vote in State elections where the enclave is located.  Do you think that the plenary power of Congress is any lesser or greater with respect to military bases, than it is with the capital district?  They have required States to let overseas residents vote in their elections as well.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

It should obviously be admitted as a state. Some people might not like that there'd be a majority black state, but I don't care what they think.

[Frodo]

It should obviously be admitted as a state. Some people might not like that there'd be a majority black state, but I don't care what they think.

A number of us don't really give a damn what you think either. 

[Verily]

According to the 2006 ACS,

Of DC residents:

40% born in DC
46% born in other state.
4% foreign born, naturalized
9% foreign born, non-citizen

But this is strongly age dependent.  Among children 0-5, and 5-17, 77% and 76% were born in the district.  Among adults 18-24, 30% were born in the district, and among those 25-34, 27% were born in the district.  The peak for adults is 45-54, 42%, and then it declines to under 25% among those over 60.

Only 13% of whites, who constitute 34% of the district population, were born there.  Even among blacks, only 61% were born in the district.

Of residents 1 year an older, 9.9% lived outside the district, one year earlier.  2.4% were from within the DC metro area, 6.1% from other states, and 1.4%.

You misunderstand my concern about population.  There are 100s of county-like areas with more population than Wyoming, Vermont, and North Dakota.  I am not advocating statehood for these county-like areas; and I don't think you are either.  The city of Washington, currently located in the District of Columbia, is more like its neighboring counties of Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Fairfax than it is like the state of Wyoming or Vermont.   Washington, Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Fairfax counties are simply places where people who work for the federal government, directly or indirectly sleep at night.

The federal government is so named because the United State is a federal union of sovereign States.  You don't here the people in France or the UK referring to their government as federal government.  Representatives and Senators are chosen by the citizens of their respective states.

My proposal would let the residents of DC participate in all levels of government.  If they choose not to participate in the elections for the governor and legislature, that is their right.  I suspect that if Washington City had 15 delegates and 5 senators in the Maryland General Assembly, they would vote for them.   BTW, 20 of the 141 Delegates in the Maryland HoD were born in Washington, DC.  It is an artificial boundary, no more significant than the one that used to split Virginia.

Why would my plan have to be passed via Constitutional Amendment?  Congress has provided that persons resident on federal enclaves can vote in State elections where the enclave is located.  Do you think that the plenary power of Congress is any lesser or greater with respect to military bases, than it is with the capital district?  They have required States to let overseas residents vote in their elections as well.

This is somewhat frivolous argument. The state of Vermont is very much like the state of New Hampshire; should they be consolidated? The same goes for Wyoming and Idaho. Their boundaries are also arbitrary and artificial. (Of course, I would say yes to both, but that's beside the point.)

[jimrtex]

According to the 2006 ACS,

Of DC residents:

40% born in DC
46% born in other state.
4% foreign born, naturalized
9% foreign born, non-citizen

But this is strongly age dependent.  Among children 0-5, and 5-17, 77% and 76% were born in the district.  Among adults 18-24, 30% were born in the district, and among those 25-34, 27% were born in the district.  The peak for adults is 45-54, 42%, and then it declines to under 25% among those over 60.

Only 13% of whites, who constitute 34% of the district population, were born there.  Even among blacks, only 61% were born in the district.

Of residents 1 year an older, 9.9% lived outside the district, one year earlier.  2.4% were from within the DC metro area, 6.1% from other states, and 1.4%.

You misunderstand my concern about population.  There are 100s of county-like areas with more population than Wyoming, Vermont, and North Dakota.  I am not advocating statehood for these county-like areas; and I don't think you are either.  The city of Washington, currently located in the District of Columbia, is more like its neighboring counties of Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Fairfax than it is like the state of Wyoming or Vermont.   Washington, Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Fairfax counties are simply places where people who work for the federal government, directly or indirectly sleep at night.

The federal government is so named because the United State is a federal union of sovereign States.  You don't here the people in France or the UK referring to their government as federal government.  Representatives and Senators are chosen by the citizens of their respective states.

My proposal would let the residents of DC participate in all levels of government.  If they choose not to participate in the elections for the governor and legislature, that is their right.  I suspect that if Washington City had 15 delegates and 5 senators in the Maryland General Assembly, they would vote for them.   BTW, 20 of the 141 Delegates in the Maryland HoD were born in Washington, DC.  It is an artificial boundary, no more significant than the one that used to split Virginia.

Why would my plan have to be passed via Constitutional Amendment?  Congress has provided that persons resident on federal enclaves can vote in State elections where the enclave is located.  Do you think that the plenary power of Congress is any lesser or greater with respect to military bases, than it is with the capital district?  They have required States to let overseas residents vote in their elections as well.

This is somewhat frivolous argument. The state of Vermont is very much like the state of New Hampshire; should they be consolidated? The same goes for Wyoming and Idaho. Their boundaries are also arbitrary and artificial. (Of course, I would say yes to both, but that's beside the point.)

Which is a somewhat frivolous argument?  That 1/7 of the Maryland legislature was born in DC?  That 10% of residents in DC moved into the city in the last year.  That among younger adults 20-34 over 2/3 were born outside the city.

Your argument seems to be that DC residents can't vote for senators, therefore it should be a State.  But they could really care less about voting for governor or a legislature and are as happy as clams to be able to vote for Senators and a city council that is subject to total control by the federal government.

Washington is the largest city in a metropolitan area that extends into Maryland and Virginia, and even into Pennsylvania and West Virginia.  It has much less population than its neighboring counties in Maryland, and counties further afield are rapidly growing in population.  It is simply the central city of a metropolitan area.  It does not have the qualities of a State.


Of course, NH and VT are quite different.  They have always been politically different.  NH has seaports and manufacturing and now is becoming a far suburb of Boston.  Vermont has always been agricultural, with some skiing, a place for New Yorkers to move to.  The major population centers, Manchester-Nashua and Burlington are about as far apart as you can get.  The Connecticut Valley is very lightly populated above Springfield.

Wyoming and Idaho are also quite different.  Wyoming is ranching, coal, and oil, and a RR which was built because it had fewer mountains.  It's population is more or less stagnant, and is the poster child for low population congressional districts.  Idaho is growing rapidly, is mountainous, is an import semiconductor center, and soon will have a 3rd representative.

[Verily]

Yes, and DC and Maryland are quite different: one is an urban ghetto, and one isn't. Unless you'd like to explain to the people of Dorchester County that they are an urban ghetto.

But I'm not arguing for statehood, and I'm not sure why you think I am.

[minionofmidas]

How about combining Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia, Delaware, and the district, minus the Mall into a single state?

Why "minus the Mall"? Also, West Virginia, except the eastern panhandle, has very little in common with the other regions mentioned here, and would be better off fused with Kentucky and/or Ohio. Oh and New Castle County should be fused with Pennsylvania and South Jersey rather than with DC. But apart from that I like the proposal.

[pragmatic liberal]

Arguments against DC statehood or voting rights strike me as facetious.

The idea that Congress cannot grant DC representation in Congress has been challenged by conservative scholars like Ken Starr and Viet Dinh.

Of course, the simpler task would be statehood - simply redefine the "Federal District" to be the area comprising the National Mall, the Capitol, the White House and maybe the Supreme Court. Admit the rest of the city into the union as a state. The only problem with this is that it might need to be tied with a constitutional amendment repealing the 23rd Amendment, lest we give 3 electoral votes to a tiny, uninhabited territory (it could be that it would just become inoperative, however).

Retrocession to Maryland as an alternate proposal is an acceptable idea; however, poll after poll show that Maryland does NOT want DC and poll after poll show that DC residents do NOT want to be part of Maryland. The City and District have an independent identity and have been a separate entity for nearly 200 years.

Some say that DC cannot receive statehood because that would put a state in charge of the federal government. This idea might have made sense back in 18th and 19th Centuries. But today the Federal Government is CLEARLY superior to the states; there is nothing that a state government could do to hold the federal government hostage.

Besides, it's not even clear that the Constitution requires a "Federal District." The federal government functioned fine for over a decade being based in NY and then Philadelphia. The constitution also simply says Congress "may exercise authority over a federal district not exceeding 10 square miles." The language could clearly be interpreted as meaning that Congress may create a federal district but isn't required to.

So give DC statehood. I suppose if the Republicans want a new Republican state then maybe you can split Washington state into 2, with a new state formed east of the Cascade Mountains. Or give the Eastern shores of Maryland and Virginia statehood as "Chesapeake."