SENATE BILL: Kill the Penny Act (Failed)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 06:53:45 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Government (Moderators: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee, Lumine)
  SENATE BILL: Kill the Penny Act (Failed)
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Kill the Penny Act (Failed)  (Read 4415 times)
bgwah
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: September 13, 2011, 06:39:07 PM »
« edited: September 23, 2011, 01:11:19 AM by bgwah »


Sponsor: JBrase
Logged
Fmr. Pres. Duke
AHDuke99
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,021


Political Matrix
E: -1.94, S: -3.13

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 07:37:09 PM »

I see this as a good thing. It saves us money, and people rarely use pennies anyway.
Logged
bgwah
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 09:45:36 PM »

Will business make sure to price their products so that when customers have to pay, and taxes are accounted for, it will always be rounded up to the nearest nickel? I guess that's not really a question, of course they will.
Logged
tmthforu94
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,401
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.26, S: -4.52

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 10:27:18 PM »

So, under this act, my interpreation is that the penny will still be used, just no more will be made. Kinda like what the US did with the two-dollar bill.

It'd be cool if some sort of program was created to recycle all the old pennies into new coins or something else.
Logged
Napoleon
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 11:12:40 PM »

So, under this act, my interpreation is that the penny will still be used, just no more will be made. Kinda like what the US did with the two-dollar bill.

It'd be cool if some sort of program was created to recycle all the old pennies into new coins or something else.

Uh, the penny would still be legal tender and not totally removed from circulation under this law. Only production ends.
Logged
RIP Robert H Bork
officepark
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,030
Czech Republic


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 12:40:45 AM »

Sorry, I think this is crazy. I'll oppose this bill.
Logged
Fmr. Pres. Duke
AHDuke99
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,021


Political Matrix
E: -1.94, S: -3.13

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 01:12:06 PM »

This makes fiscal sense. It costs more to produce a penny than they are actually worth. There's no reason to continue to make pennies.
Logged
NVGonzalez
antwnzrr
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,687
Mexico


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 02:23:21 PM »

Sounds reasonable. As long as the current pennies remain active.
Logged
bgwah
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2011, 03:15:04 PM »

But what if we run out of pennies?!
Logged
tmthforu94
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,401
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.26, S: -4.52

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 04:13:15 PM »

So, under this act, my interpreation is that the penny will still be used, just no more will be made. Kinda like what the US did with the two-dollar bill.

It'd be cool if some sort of program was created to recycle all the old pennies into new coins or something else.

Uh, the penny would still be legal tender and not totally removed from circulation under this law. Only production ends.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said my interpretation was. What's your point?

I still think it'd be a good idea, as a way to phase out the penny, to think of some sort of recycling program so pennies aren't just thrown away.
Logged
Napoleon
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 04:35:35 PM »

So, under this act, my interpreation is that the penny will still be used, just no more will be made. Kinda like what the US did with the two-dollar bill.

It'd be cool if some sort of program was created to recycle all the old pennies into new coins or something else.

Uh, the penny would still be legal tender and not totally removed from circulation under this law. Only production ends.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said my interpretation was. What's your point?
I still think it'd be a good idea, as a way to phase out the penny, to think of some sort of recycling program so pennies aren't just thrown away.

The point being obviously that since pennies will still be used, recycling is totally unnecessary and you are only trying to complicate the law.
Logged
tmthforu94
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,401
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.26, S: -4.52

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 04:39:24 PM »

So, under this act, my interpreation is that the penny will still be used, just no more will be made. Kinda like what the US did with the two-dollar bill.

It'd be cool if some sort of program was created to recycle all the old pennies into new coins or something else.

Uh, the penny would still be legal tender and not totally removed from circulation under this law. Only production ends.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said my interpretation was. What's your point?
I still think it'd be a good idea, as a way to phase out the penny, to think of some sort of recycling program so pennies aren't just thrown away.

The point being obviously that since pennies will still be used, recycling is totally unnecessary and you are only trying to complicate the law.

I'm throwing out suggestions. Call that complicating the law if you want, I don't care.

I'm saying if another purpose being considered is to phase out the penny, which I've heard of from other Senators as a possibility, I hope the Senate will then consider some sort of a recycling program.
Logged
Napoleon
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 04:41:17 PM »

That is an unreasonable suggestion. Or, to use your term "dangerous".
Logged
tmthforu94
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,401
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.26, S: -4.52

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 04:42:58 PM »

That is an unreasonable suggestion. Or, to use your term "dangerous".
Referring to phasing out the penny, or recycling old pennies? And why do you think it is unreasonable?
Logged
Napoleon
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 04:47:01 PM »

That is an unreasonable suggestion. Or, to use your term "dangerous".
Referring to phasing out the penny, or recycling old pennies? And why do you think it is unreasonable?

Phasing out the penny would be unreasonable because not all of our transactions currently run to the nearest nickel. Pennies serve a purpose, it is the cost of production that makes a proposal to end production hold merit. Pennies haven't lost their use as a currency simply because production ends.
Logged
tmthforu94
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,401
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.26, S: -4.52

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 04:51:32 PM »

That is an unreasonable suggestion. Or, to use your term "dangerous".
Referring to phasing out the penny, or recycling old pennies? And why do you think it is unreasonable?

Phasing out the penny would be unreasonable because not all of our transactions currently run to the nearest nickel. Pennies serve a purpose, it is the cost of production that makes a proposal to end production hold merit. Pennies haven't lost their use as a currency simply because production ends.
You make fair points. I never said I supported phasing out the penny, I've just privately heard it come up. I'm just saying if it does come to that, I hope the Senate will consider some sort of recycling program rather than billions of pennies laying around in our houses and in dumps.
Logged
Fmr. Pres. Duke
AHDuke99
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,021


Political Matrix
E: -1.94, S: -3.13

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 05:52:56 PM »

I think we would if it came to that, because lord knows all that copper could be used for something, but we won't be phasing it out so much as we are stopping production. That said, in a way this is the beginning of a phasing out because pennies do not last forever...
Logged
Napoleon
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2011, 06:26:43 PM »

30 years is a long time though.
Logged
Fmr. Pres. Duke
AHDuke99
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,021


Political Matrix
E: -1.94, S: -3.13

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2011, 06:53:53 PM »


Oh I know. I am not saying we should not go through with this bill. That said, this is a form of phasing out, albeit an extremely slow one.
Logged
bgwah
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2011, 06:36:23 PM »

Are we ready for a final vote? Smiley
Logged
Marokai Backbeat
Marokai Blue
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,477
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2011, 10:17:53 PM »

I've taken a random interest in this bill!

Using real life stats, according to the Mint, it cost 1.79 cents to make a single penny, meaning for every penny we make, it's created at a 0.0079 (of a dollar) loss. In 2010, we created four billion pennies, which amounts to a loss of $32 million. This act would reduce the supply of pennies that would've otherwise been in circulation by (using the last six years to create the average) an average of 5.8 billion pennies a year.

At the current loss, an average of 5.8 billion pennies a year amounts to roughly $45.8 million a year in savings.

But Duke's comment deserves some attention:

This makes fiscal sense. It costs more to produce a penny than they are actually worth. There's no reason to continue to make pennies.

The Senator is correct, it doesn't make fiscal sense to continue to make pennies, but it also doesn't make fiscal sense to continue to create nickels, either.

It costs at least 7.1 cents to make a nickel. (Some other sources put that number at 7.7 cents.) Using the same six year average (which is lower than the actual average, really, given the tightening of the money supply in 2009), we created an average of 943.2 million nickels a year.

At a 0.021 loss in creating each nickel, we lose an average of $19.8 million a year creating a comparatively much smaller amount of nickels.

As penny supplies in the overall economy tighten in the coming years, we may be in a bit of a bind. If we eliminate pennies altogether and round up prices, the Mint will be forced to create a lot more nickels, which would more than offset the savings we would make by stopping penny production due to the loss on nickels being nearly three times the amount of loss on manufacturing pennies. Even simply stopping penny production indefinitely but not mandating prices must be rounded up may cause penny shortages after several years, with some retailers rounding up prices independently, forcing the mint to create more nickels to compensate anyway.

Because of that, and the halfhearted method of this bill in trying to stake out a position somewhere in the middle of the status-quo and stopping penny production and the legal tender of it altogether, I don't actually believe this bill will really do much. Short term savings will, in substantial likelihood, be erased by increased losses after several years' time anyway.
Logged
tmthforu94
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,401
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.26, S: -4.52

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2011, 10:34:30 PM »

You've made some excellent points, Marokai. Certainly changed my opinion on the bill.
Logged
TJ in Oregon
TJ in Cleve
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,952
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: 6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2011, 10:48:13 PM »

Perhaps we could get rid of the penny and start minting zinc nickels? There's no reason why we have to spend 7.1 cents per nickel when we can clearly mint coins cheaper.
Logged
Marokai Backbeat
Marokai Blue
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,477
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2011, 10:57:18 PM »

Perhaps we could get rid of the penny and start minting zinc nickels? There's no reason why we have to spend 7.1 cents per nickel when we can clearly mint coins cheaper.

I definitely think that if we're going to get rid of pennies at all we should go at it very seriously with a more comprehensive plan than this. Stop penny production, and eventually, mandate rounding up prices, and use a similar formula we make pennies with to make nickels instead. It makes nickels cheaper, rounds up costs, and at that point no coin we make is at a loss.
Logged
bgwah
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2011, 11:12:55 PM »

What if I don't want to pay $1.50 instead of $1.46??? Tongue
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.053 seconds with 12 queries.