What if Abbas succeeds and UN recognizes Palestine within pre1967 borders?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Why, no. Scripture DOESN'T say anything explicit about how its own prophecies are to be interpreted. Thanks for noticing. But consider that most of the prophecies that Christ fulfilled He fulfilled through things like synecdoche (Rachel weeping in Rama) or puns (nazirite/Nazarene). Always remember that the Bible was, contrary to popular belief among Christians and non-Christians alike, actually put together by very smart people.

Sure the bible sometimes uses allegories, but other times it speaks directly, example:

Luke 21:20 ““When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.”

There is NO ALLEGORY in the above sentence, therefore no interpretation is needed other than taking it for face value.  Duh!

This did in fact happen. It happened, by my count, one thousand nine hundred and forty-one years ago.

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The 'actively' modifies 'distracts', not 'politically'.[/quote]

You’re boring me.[/quote]

I'm beginning to understand why your state has a governor who acts like Altena from Noir with less tact.

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And why, exactly, does that make a hill of beans?!  Are they contending that Israel can’t be partially reconstructed before the whole thing is brought back together by God?  If they want to make a scriptural argument against its reformation, then I am willing to listen, though it’s a pretty safe bet they themselves are full of beans, because there is NOTHING in scripture that stands against a partial gathering before God completely regathers the Jews in the promised land

[/quote]

Stop pretending you know anything about Judaism or Jewish history. Now.

[King]

I hear if the Jewish rebuild the temple, God will the destroy the universe.  So, I think it's important we ban Judaism from the Holy Land to appease Him.

[ag]

To the one who doesnt think Christians are monotheist, we are. We happen to believe in the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (Israel) where our primary difference is over Yeshuah (Jesus). I and all Christians believe Yeshuah is the messiah the Jewish people have been looking for.

Me? I don't care sh**t about it.  Unfortunately, my fellow-tribesmen who care about this tend to think you, guys, don't pass the monotheist cut. And their opinion is the one that counts in Israel.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Sure the bible sometimes uses allegories, but other times it speaks directly, example:

Luke 21:20 ““When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.”

There is NO ALLEGORY in the above sentence, therefore no interpretation is needed other than taking it for face value.  Duh!

This did in fact happen. It happened, by my count, one thousand nine hundred and forty-one years ago.

never said it hadn't occurred before...I was simply making the point that Jesus and the rest of the bible don't always speak in allegories and therefore you can at times take it for face value....remember, it was you accusing me of not knowing how to read the scripture.

---

Stop pretending you know anything about Judaism or Jewish history. Now.

Judaism?  maybe not since so little of it resembles the OT.  But if you want to have a discussion about OT Judaism and/or OT Jewish history, then I'm game, but you might want to start a thread on the religion board.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Sure the bible sometimes uses allegories, but other times it speaks directly, example:

Luke 21:20 ““When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.”

There is NO ALLEGORY in the above sentence, therefore no interpretation is needed other than taking it for face value.  Duh!

This did in fact happen. It happened, by my count, one thousand nine hundred and forty-one years ago.

never said it hadn't occurred before...I was simply making the point that Jesus and the rest of the bible don't always speak in allegories and therefore you can at times take it for face value....remember, it was you accusing me of not knowing how to read the scripture.

Yeah, I think what's going on with that verse is Jesus, speaking ~AD 30, discussing something that happens in AD 70. There's no need to bring AD 2011 into it as well.

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Judaism?  maybe not since so little of it resembles the OT.  But if you want to have a discussion about OT Judaism and/or OT Jewish history, then I'm game, but you might want to start a thread on the religion board.
[/quote][/quote]

You're the one who's trying to discuss the OT. I'm trying to discuss modern Judaism, how it relates to modern Christianity and modern Islam, and how these religions relate to the political tensions in the land that was at point in time the homeland of OT Jewry. The people in charge of the current entity called 'State of Israel' are in fact modern Jews, not OT Jews. Sorry.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yeah, I think what's going on with that verse is Jesus, speaking ~AD 30, discussing something that happens in AD 70. There's no need to bring AD 2011 into it as well.

well, hate to shake you up, but Jesus continues in the Olivet Discourse and discusses the events surrounding his return to earth in full view of every nation....so I think you fell off the turnip truck someone around 70AD.

---

The people in charge of the current entity called 'State of Israel' are in fact modern Jews, not OT Jews. Sorry.

you know, people like you show up from time to time on this forum...I'm sure someone can point you to a thread about this subject, since it has only been discussed and discarded about a dozen times on this forum in the past

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Yeah, I think what's going on with that verse is Jesus, speaking ~AD 30, discussing something that happens in AD 70. There's no need to bring AD 2011 into it as well.

well, hate to shake you up, but Jesus continues in the Olivet Discourse and discusses the events surrounding his return to earth in full view of every nation....so I think you fell off the turnip truck someone around 70AD.

So, are you familiar with preterism at all, or just enough to be able to get your view of what its claims are entirely wrong?

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you know, people like you show up from time to time on this forum...I'm sure someone can point you to a thread about this subject, since it has only been discussed and discarded about a dozen times on this forum in the past
[/quote]

...'people like me'? By which we mean people who don't subscribe to the idea that a religion/ethnic group and the circumstances surrounding its presence in a particular region of the world have not changed in the past two thousand years?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So, are you familiar with preterism at all, or just enough to be able to get your view of what its claims are entirely wrong?

I think preterism has some deep, yet basic, internal contradictions that it needs to work out on its own before I waste any more time on it.  And I also know, because I read their writings, that some of those early church fathers believed EXACTLY as I do - that the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and the Antichrist will be ruling from it when Jesus returns.

---

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you know, people like you show up from time to time on this forum...I'm sure someone can point you to a thread about this subject, since it has only been discussed and discarded about a dozen times on this forum in the past

...'people like me'? By which we mean people who don't subscribe to the idea that a religion/ethnic group and the circumstances surrounding its presence in a particular region of the world have not changed in the past two thousand years?
[/quote]

I mean people like you who attempt to claim that the modern day nation of Israel has no genealogical link to the biblical Jews.

And you called me a racist?!

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

So, are you familiar with preterism at all, or just enough to be able to get your view of what its claims are entirely wrong?

I think preterism has some deep, yet basic, internal contradictions that it needs to work out on its own before I waste any more time on it.

I think the same about futurism.

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I don't believe that and I never said I did. If you could take your head out of your ass for long enough to actually read what I am writing from anything remotely approaching a lucid point of view you would see that what I am saying is that, while the modern nation of Israel is both genealogically and religiously descended from the ancient one, differences in culture and creed between two or three thousand years ago and to-day mean that treating modern Jews as if they were just Biblical Jews preserved like a fly in amber is willfully ignorant at best.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

what I am saying is that, while the modern nation of Israel is both genealogically and religiously descended from the ancient one, differences in culture and creed between two or three thousand years ago and to-day mean that treating modern Jews as if they were just Biblical Jews preserved like a fly in amber is willfully ignorant at best.

so....their change in culture and creed has somehow revoked their calling by God...as if God’s gifts and his call are revocable, instead of being irrevocable?!

who knew....learn something new everyday.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

what I am saying is that, while the modern nation of Israel is both genealogically and religiously descended from the ancient one, differences in culture and creed between two or three thousand years ago and to-day mean that treating modern Jews as if they were just Biblical Jews preserved like a fly in amber is willfully ignorant at best.

so....their change in culture and creed has somehow revoked their calling by God...as if God’s gifts and his call are revocable, instead of being irrevocable?!

who knew....learn something new everyday.

Well, no. It was the coming of Jesus that made the calling by God no longer unique to a specific ethnic group.

The changes in culture and creed don't have much of anything to do with God, but they have everything to do with the fact that, truthfully, the kind of thinking that you're espousing is not exactly helpful to the Jewish people except on a simplistic geopolitical level. Far better to be 'an ethnic group' than 'a pawn in the eschatology of a religion with two hundred times as many adherents'. Jews have their own ways of looking at these things, even the subset of very religious Jews who support the State of Israel in its present form (which there are, just as there are very religious Jews who don't). Even Jews who agree with you on this issue (of whom, again, there are plenty) wouldn't appreciate being told that it relates to the Olivet Discourse. How do I know, you may ask? Because an entire branch of my extended family is Jewish, religious, and disgusted by the actions taken out in the name of the State of Israel by well-meaning fanatical Gentiles, that's why.

All of this, of course, still has nothing to do with the fact that said State of Israel is taking a minority population and forcing it into refugee camps.

Side note: I'm not trying to get you to agree with me at this point, I'm just trying to explain what my point of view actually is, since your conception of it is a little off (I admit you're better at explaining your views concisely than I am). If I stop replying soon it's not because I've given up on this conversation, it's just because I need sleep.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so....their change in culture and creed has somehow revoked their calling by God...as if God’s gifts and his call are revocable, instead of being irrevocable?!

who knew....learn something new everyday.

Well, no. It was the coming of Jesus that made the calling by God no longer unique to a specific ethnic group.

I never said anything about God not being able to call a nonJew.  What I asked you was whether or not you believe God's gifts and calling of blood Israel is revocable....because, if revocable, then there is no reason to treat Israel different than any other nation.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

so....their change in culture and creed has somehow revoked their calling by God...as if God’s gifts and his call are revocable, instead of being irrevocable?!

who knew....learn something new everyday.

Well, no. It was the coming of Jesus that made the calling by God no longer unique to a specific ethnic group.

I never said anything about God not being able to call a nonJew.  What I asked you was whether or not you believe God's gifts and calling of blood Israel is revocable....because, if revocable, then there is no reason to treat Israel different than any other nation.

I believe that God's gifts and calling of blood Israel was permanent but that since the coming of Jesus we have to take other groups' claims into account as well. This includes Jews who are non-Zionist or even anti-Zionist as well as non-Jews who have roots in the land in question. I think that it's important that Israel exist and be, if not exclusively Jewish, at least noticeably so, because of how important it is to many Jews and because, yes, having Jews be there and be safe there is fulfilling a promise that they've been screwed out of in the past; I also think that it's important that Israel not continue to aggressively expand, because we aren't in Old Testament times any more and while it's not always going to be easy one of the hallmarks of the Kingdom of Christ is recognizing the thoughts and feelings of people who it might not be easy to do that with. In this case, I support a two-state solution with both states having linguistic and cultural protections (not necessary religious per se, but they tend to map reasonably well on to each other at least as far as the Jewish/Arab divide goes).

Again, I'm not expecting you to agree with me or even consider my position theologically or morally sound, I just want you to understand what it is.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The changes in culture and creed don't have much of anything to do with God, but they have everything to do with the fact that, truthfully, the kind of thinking that you're espousing is not exactly helpful to the Jewish people except on a simplistic geopolitical level. Far better to be 'an ethnic group' than 'a pawn in the eschatology of a religion with two hundred times as many adherents'. Jews have their own ways of looking at these things, even the subset of very religious Jews who support the State of Israel in its present form (which there are, just as there are very religious Jews who don't). Even Jews who agree with you on this issue (of whom, again, there are plenty) wouldn't appreciate being told that it relates to the Olivet Discourse. How do I know, you may ask? Because an entire branch of my extended family is Jewish, religious, and disgusted by the actions taken out in the name of the State of Israel by well-meaning fanatical Gentiles, that's why.

All of this, of course, still has nothing to do with the fact that said State of Israel is taking a minority population and forcing it into refugee camps.

Side note: I'm not trying to get you to agree with me at this point, I'm just trying to explain what my point of view actually is, since your conception of it is a little off (I admit you're better at explaining your views concisely than I am). If I stop replying soon it's not because I've given up on this conversation, it's just because I need sleep.

who cares what the Jews think about their role?!  They can walk away from their God given gifts, I wouldnt care.  I don't treat them based on their realization of who they are or what they are doing, or what they think about what I think of them....rather I treat them as God's anointed whose gifts and calling are irrevocable.  I wouldnt rise up against them anymore than David would rise up against Saul.  Once someone has been chosen, regardless if they are obedient, you don't touch that person in a manner which will attempt to take away the gifts given to him by God.

You're talking as if you've never read either the OT or NT.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

The changes in culture and creed don't have much of anything to do with God, but they have everything to do with the fact that, truthfully, the kind of thinking that you're espousing is not exactly helpful to the Jewish people except on a simplistic geopolitical level. Far better to be 'an ethnic group' than 'a pawn in the eschatology of a religion with two hundred times as many adherents'. Jews have their own ways of looking at these things, even the subset of very religious Jews who support the State of Israel in its present form (which there are, just as there are very religious Jews who don't). Even Jews who agree with you on this issue (of whom, again, there are plenty) wouldn't appreciate being told that it relates to the Olivet Discourse. How do I know, you may ask? Because an entire branch of my extended family is Jewish, religious, and disgusted by the actions taken out in the name of the State of Israel by well-meaning fanatical Gentiles, that's why.

All of this, of course, still has nothing to do with the fact that said State of Israel is taking a minority population and forcing it into refugee camps.

Side note: I'm not trying to get you to agree with me at this point, I'm just trying to explain what my point of view actually is, since your conception of it is a little off (I admit you're better at explaining your views concisely than I am). If I stop replying soon it's not because I've given up on this conversation, it's just because I need sleep.

who cares what the Jews think about their role?!  They can walk away from their God given gifts, I wouldnt care.  I don't treat them based on their realization of who they are or what they are doing, or what they think about what I think of them....rather I treat them as God's anointed whose gifts and calling are irrevocable.  I wouldnt rise up against them anymore than David would rise up against Saul.  Once someone has been chosen, regardless if they are obedient, you don't touch that person in a manner which will attempt to take away the gifts given to him by God.

The issue is that that's condescending and frankly kind of unnecessary. I'm not talking about how to think of Jews on a rarefied theological level, I'm talking about how practically to treat them day-to-day. Answer: Like people, not rare and delicate snowflakes or museum pieces.

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I've read the Pentateuch several times and the entire NT once, the Gospels and Acts more than once. I'm less familiar with the rest of the OT but there are parts that I know a good bit about there as well.

I'm going to stop talking about this now (I'll still be posting in this thread, probably, but about other aspects of the topic) because I think we've hashed out pretty much everything we can. It's obvious that we have radically different positions both on our faith and on its relation to other faiths and to international law, and I think that's okay. We share the same Creed, after all. I hope we understand each other a little better and I don't bear you any ill will at all but I don't think we're going to get much more from continuing this discussion.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Typical bias from the left towards the Palestinian Muslims. In the end my view will be vindicated. Why should Israel concede land when the Palestinian Muslims should be admitted as citizens with full rights in Jordan? Offer the Christians full Israeli citizen rights in the process.

Return all of Indiana to Natives and you can go wherever your ancestors came from, buster.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I believe that God's gifts and calling of blood Israel was permanent but that since the coming of Jesus we have to take other groups' claims into account as well. This includes Jews who are non-Zionist or even anti-Zionist as well as non-Jews who have roots in the land in question. I think that it's important that Israel exist and be, if not exclusively Jewish, at least noticeably so, because of how important it is to many Jews and because, yes, having Jews be there and be safe there is fulfilling a promise that they've been screwed out of in the past; I also think that it's important that Israel not continue to aggressively expand, because we aren't in Old Testament times any more and while it's not always going to be easy one of the hallmarks of the Kingdom of Christ is recognizing the thoughts and feelings of people who it might not be easy to do that with. In this case, I support a two-state solution with both states having linguistic and cultural protections (not necessary religious per se, but they tend to map reasonably well on to each other at least as far as the Jewish/Arab divide goes).

Again, I'm not expecting you to agree with me or even consider my position theologically or morally sound, I just want you to understand what it is.

1) you're dreaming is you think this is going to end peacefully
2) no one, including Jews, has a claim that will revoke God's gifts and calling to Israel.  They weren't revoked by Jesus's birth death or resurrection, they weren't revoked by the birth of the church on the day of Pentecost...and they're certainly not revoked by the world disputing with Israel over the promised land.

Bottom line, if you raise your hand against God's anointed in an attempt to remove the position (gifts, calling, etc) God put them in, you're a dead man.   That's why David didnt rise up against Saul, even though Saul was wicked and David knew that he would soon be king...that's why Elijah didn't attempt have Ahab killed...etc, etc, etc.

But in the case of modern day Israel, they're simply trying to hold on to their God-given land.  And certainly they have every biblical right to do so.

As far as a NT view of the blood Israel (the Jews), have you not read Romans chapters 10 and 11?  If so, then you know that their call and gifts are IRrevocable and that their rejection of Christ is only temporary and will end when all the Gentiles who are to be saved are saved, thus ending the Age of the Gentiles.

At the very least, read the story of Joseph in the book of Genesis – he, like Christ, was rejected by his brothers even though he communicated his role in their salvation, but Joseph was accepted by the Gentiles and provided salvation for them…and finally, Joseph revealed his identity to his brothers, the Jews, and so Joseph, rejected by the Jews, saved the Jews after he saved the Gentiles.

As Jesus said, the first will be last. And the last first.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

We share the same Creed, after all.

actually, we don't, for I don't go by creeds.

---

The issue is that that's condescending and frankly kind of unnecessary. I'm not talking about how to think of Jews on a rarefied theological level, I'm talking about how practically to treat them day-to-day. Answer: Like people, not rare and delicate snowflakes or museum pieces.

if anyone, Jews or Gentile, is not adult enough to tolerate my opinion, then who cares?  I treat Isreal as God's anointed, just as I treat a Christian.  If they think that is condescending, then who cares?!  That's their problem, I'm not going to become PC and ignore the Bible simply because they get their feelings hurt.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

let's try to get this thread back on track and talk about the political outcome of a US veto, and leave our religious personal views on the religion board  (I'm trying Andrew, I'm trying ):

please explain how the US could veto recognition of a Palestinian state in the middle of the Arab Spring without having many US embassies attacked throughout the ME?

this is why I think Abbas has used Obama's Apology and Obama and placed the US in a lose-lose situation.

what do posters feel will be the repercussions to a US veto?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I agree with you that it would be both dangerous for Americans in the Middle East and geopolitically disastrous for the United States, but it wouldn't exactly have much shock value at this point.

[Gustaf]

As I as noted before, it's no question that Israel is an extreme anti-Christian country. You know how conservatives describe the government in the US as hating Christians? Well that's what Israel's regime is. Israel has certainly butchered far more Christians than Iran.

Also I find the "God promised the land to the Jews" thing pretty ridiculous:

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Looking at that thread made me realize how much better the forum is now compared to then. It's an entire thread of stupid basically, with an interjection or two by posters who aren't. Nauseating.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Typical bias from the left towards the Palestinian Muslims. In the end my view will be vindicated. Why should Israel concede land when the Palestinian Muslims should be admitted as citizens with full rights in Jordan? Offer the Christians full Israeli citizen rights in the process.

And Islamic Palestinians don't get an opportunity for Israeli rights like the Christians because...

If they would renounce committing terrorism and recognize Israel's national sovereignty I'd support offering full citizen rights to Islamic Palestinians.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Typical bias from the left towards the Palestinian Muslims. In the end my view will be vindicated. Why should Israel concede land when the Palestinian Muslims should be admitted as citizens with full rights in Jordan? Offer the Christians full Israeli citizen rights in the process.

And Islamic Palestinians don't get an opportunity for Israeli rights like the Christians because...

If they would renounce committing terrorism and recognize Israel's national sovereignty I'd support offering full citizen rights to Islamic Palestinians.

Uh, not all Palestinian terrorists are Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Habash

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the largest Palestinian terrorist group before the 90s, was very very far from Islamist.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

To the one who doesnt think Christians are monotheist, we are. We happen to believe in the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (Israel) where our primary difference is over Yeshuah (Jesus). I and all Christians believe Yeshuah is the messiah the Jewish people have been looking for.

Me? I don't care sh**t about it.  Unfortunately, my fellow-tribesmen who care about this tend to think you, guys, don't pass the monotheist cut. And their opinion is the one that counts in Israel.

Did you know one of the foremost rabbis  (Kaduri)in Israel had a letter revealed sometime after his death and it listed Yeshuah (Jesus) as the messiah

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

well, Abbas says the PA will never recognize the Jewish state of Israel...and, of course, the Muslims are rioting in the West Bank.

so, without accepting to start a new country adjacent to a Jewish nation, Abbas has basically openly declared war with the aim to destroy the Jewish state of Israel....he will only accept Israel's right to exist if it aint Jewish.