Were the 1990's the peak of Western Civilization?
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  Were the 1990's the peak of Western Civilization?
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2011, 10:25:48 AM »
« edited: September 28, 2011, 02:18:55 PM by Genghis Timberlake »

No comments on my decades?
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2011, 01:27:42 PM »

Enlightenment was the peak of Western Civilization.
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opebo
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« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2011, 01:54:53 PM »

Enlightenment was the peak of Western Civilization.

Except of course for the fact that it was an error.
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2011, 02:06:12 PM »
« Edited: September 30, 2011, 02:09:12 PM by Mynheer Peeperkorn »

Enlightenment was the peak of Western Civilization.

Except of course for the fact that it was an error.

Leo Naphta, I presume?

How could be an error the beginning of the death of superstition and the triumph of man, art and science?
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opebo
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« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2011, 02:28:03 PM »

Leo Naphta, I presume?

How could be an error the beginning of the death of superstition and the triumph of man, art and science?

Well, I suppose such-a-thing is a little too precious,  Mynheer.  Wham!

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2011, 03:48:18 PM »

Enlightenment was the peak of Western Civilization.

Yes, I also love slavery, kids working in mills, women being used as beasts of burden in mines and farm workers starving to death in muddy hovels. Huzzah!

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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2011, 04:28:13 PM »

Enlightenment was the peak of Western Civilization.

Yes, I also love slavery, kids working in mills, women being used as beasts of burden in mines and farm workers starving to death in muddy hovels. Huzzah!



The ideas of the Enlightenment created the notion of human rights.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2011, 08:52:58 PM »

Enlightenment was the peak of Western Civilization.

Yes, I also love slavery, kids working in mills, women being used as beasts of burden in mines and farm workers starving to death in muddy hovels. Huzzah!



The ideas of the Enlightenment created the notion of human rights.

...

...

This is absolutely hilarious.
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2011, 11:30:20 PM »


Why?
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angus
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« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2011, 11:39:53 PM »

Heavens no!  There was ethnic violence in Bosnia, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo.  Genocide in Rwanda.  Americans killing Americans in Oklahoma City.  Africans killing Africans in the congo basin.  American soldiers being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.  Housing prices and university tuition rates were rising faster than inflation.  dot-com IPOs were trading at 400% of their true worth, creating an unsustainable bubble.  Building contractors from Dublin, Ireland to Dublin, California, and everywhere in-between were getting sweetheart deals from municipal governments to construct housing that even today remains vacant.  Grunge music, with its teenage angst and dissonant chords was deafening a generation of children.  It was a time of corruption, greed, speculation, and rampant killing all over the West.  If anything, it was a time when Eastern civilization was on the ascendancy, with China gaining Most Favorable Nation trading status with the US in a trade partnership that put China at a distinct advantage.  The Thai Baht and many other currencies were rising against western currencies.  

And, lest we forget, there was Milli Vanilli, the Best New Artist of 1990.  

If the 90s were the peak of Western civilization, I shudder to even think of its valley.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2011, 11:48:02 AM »
« Edited: October 02, 2011, 11:50:52 AM by The Mikado »


First of all, what are these "rights?"  The right to not be a slave?  But Voltaire agreed with slavery, as did Rousseau (though he opposed slavery as a hereditary status), as did any number of other philisophes not named Adam Smith.  How about gender equality?  Take a look at how poor Mary Wollstonecraft was treated, or how Olympe de Gouges was executed by the Jacobins, the most radical segment of society, for claiming that women deserved an equal say in government.  Look how the people most obsessed with Enlightenment ideas, the French Revolutionaries, started a grand campaign to resubjugate and rechain the people of Haiti.  If you think the Enlightenment was a good era for human rights, you've been taken in by the Enlightenment's 200+ year old propaganda campaign, where a couple of decent people (Brissot, Mary Wollstonecraft, etc.) have been taken and used as a figleaf to conceal the actual depravity of the activities of the time.
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opebo
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« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2011, 12:57:48 PM »

...Building contractors from Dublin, Ireland to Dublin, California, and everywhere in-between were getting sweetheart deals from municipal governments to construct housing that even today remains vacant.

What the heck?  The overbuilding had nothing whatever to do with municipal governments, angus.  It is just the normal cycle of under-regulated markets - boom and bust.  Its capitalism, thought you liked it.
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angus
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« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2011, 01:30:08 PM »

...Building contractors from Dublin, Ireland to Dublin, California, and everywhere in-between were getting sweetheart deals from municipal governments to construct housing that even today remains vacant.

What the heck?  The overbuilding had nothing whatever to do with municipal governments, angus.  It is just the normal cycle of under-regulated markets - boom and bust.  Its capitalism, thought you liked it.

Sure, it was driven by increased disposable income and realty speculation.  But had to do with planning policy as well.  Or lack thereof.  Failure to provide incentives for high-density growth near public transit points as well as tax breaks for contractors urge detached-housing construction booms.  Also, valuations are done by private firms for governments in order to determine taxes based upon pre-set rates.  So houses get over-valued, and entire neighborhoods go empty in bust years. 

I'm not for completely unregulated capitalism. 
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Sbane
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« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2011, 02:49:15 PM »

...Building contractors from Dublin, Ireland to Dublin, California, and everywhere in-between were getting sweetheart deals from municipal governments to construct housing that even today remains vacant.

What the heck?  The overbuilding had nothing whatever to do with municipal governments, angus.  It is just the normal cycle of under-regulated markets - boom and bust.  Its capitalism, thought you liked it.

Sure, it was driven by increased disposable income and realty speculation.  But had to do with planning policy as well.  Or lack thereof.  Failure to provide incentives for high-density growth near public transit points as well as tax breaks for contractors urge detached-housing construction booms.  Also, valuations are done by private firms for governments in order to determine taxes based upon pre-set rates.  So houses get over-valued, and entire neighborhoods go empty in bust years. 

I'm not for completely unregulated capitalism. 

Dublin, CA actually did build a lot of transit friendly housing in the late 90's and 2000's, though a lot were your standard detached housing. But they didn't have a 1/4 acre in the back like houses in other parts of the country and were pretty dense for the most part. And I do believe most of the houses built are filled. Prices fell in the outer east bay, but not to the degree as in Socal or even in the central valley on the other side of the Altamont pass (or in Brentwood and Antioch). That's where the real overbuilding happened. The enviro-nazis stopped it from happening in the Bay Area proper. Tongue
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2011, 04:00:10 PM »


First of all, what are these "rights?"  The right to not be a slave?  But Voltaire agreed with slavery, as did Rousseau (though he opposed slavery as a hereditary status), as did any number of other philisophes not named Adam Smith.  How about gender equality?  Take a look at how poor Mary Wollstonecraft was treated, or how Olympe de Gouges was executed by the Jacobins, the most radical segment of society, for claiming that women deserved an equal say in government.  Look how the people most obsessed with Enlightenment ideas, the French Revolutionaries, started a grand campaign to resubjugate and rechain the people of Haiti.  If you think the Enlightenment was a good era for human rights, you've been taken in by the Enlightenment's 200+ year old propaganda campaign, where a couple of decent people (Brissot, Mary Wollstonecraft, etc.) have been taken and used as a figleaf to conceal the actual depravity of the activities of the time.

More importantly, I think there's a fair case to be made that the general thesis of the Dialektik der Aufklärung/Eclipse of Reason crowd is correct and that the way of thinking the Enlightenment represents could not but culminate in the horrors of the 20th century. The totalitarising view of the world that enabled them being a logical side product of the 17th century's love for Analysis and Synthesis.

I don't think that saying 'Well, the Enlightenment coincided with such and such evil practices'  is a correct fashion of condemning it, for it was not the Enlightenment that invented slavery or misogeny, even if some people associated with it condoned such practices, and in a way it was the thought of the Enlightenment that helped banish them. You have to look at what the Enlightenment created (i.e. Modernity and the modern man, if you ask me) to judge it, and I think there's ample munition to throw at it from such a perspective.

Also, of course, what Enlightenment? The Age of Reason being not quite the Aufklärung, and the Aufklärung not quite the Siècle des Lumières. Empiricism and Rationalism or even Pietism, Conservativism and Liberalism, ... all being part of what can be implied by these terms. To look at the Enlightenment as some sort of monolithic event is a mistake, I'd say.

Just my 50 cents Smiley
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2011, 02:46:48 AM »
« Edited: October 03, 2011, 05:26:52 AM by Mynheer Peeperkorn »


First of all, what are these "rights?"  The right to not be a slave?  But Voltaire agreed with slavery, as did Rousseau (though he opposed slavery as a hereditary status), as did any number of other philisophes not named Adam Smith.  How about gender equality?  Take a look at how poor Mary Wollstonecraft was treated, or how Olympe de Gouges was executed by the Jacobins, the most radical segment of society, for claiming that women deserved an equal say in government.  Look how the people most obsessed with Enlightenment ideas, the French Revolutionaries, started a grand campaign to resubjugate and rechain the people of Haiti.  If you think the Enlightenment was a good era for human rights, you've been taken in by the Enlightenment's 200+ year old propaganda campaign, where a couple of decent people (Brissot, Mary Wollstonecraft, etc.) have been taken and used as a figleaf to conceal the actual depravity of the activities of the time.

1 - I'm not saying that 1700' society or politics or whatever were better. I was just talking about when the ideas and ideals that forged what know as Western Civilization, liberal democracy and human rights and political rights became important.

2 - If you read Voltaire you wil find that he was quite a very ambiguous thinker, and in many places of his bibliography he openly condemns slavery.

3 - What do jacobines have to do with Enlightenment?  French revolution was about politics, and when you reach the power you only care about realpolitik and  fuçk the ideals.

Human rights as understood right now are by far more extensive than then, but Enlightenment (or even Humanism) was when the main concept became an issue.  

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tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2011, 10:02:34 AM »

1 - I'm not saying that 1700' society or politics or whatever were better. I was just talking about when the ideas and ideals that forged what know as Western Civilization, liberal democracy and human rights and political rights became important.

Yup, it was the start of this new intellectual paradigm, the attack was unfair in the sense that you couldn't have a Swedish democracy taking place on the 15th of July in France. (and you are still far from one right now here Tongue). That being said, it was only a start, even if we only judged what happened intellectually, the concepts were certainly still not very clear.

Or the point would be, what do you judge by culture? The dominating thoughts, cultural productions, of an epoch or the dominating social practices, or a mix of both?

Kinda in that sense, I think this:

Heavens no!  There was ethnic violence in Bosnia, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo.  Genocide in Rwanda.  Americans killing Americans in Oklahoma City.  Africans killing Africans in the congo basin.  American soldiers being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.  Housing prices and university tuition rates were rising faster than inflation.  dot-com IPOs were trading at 400% of their true worth, creating an unsustainable bubble.  Building contractors from Dublin, Ireland to Dublin, California, and everywhere in-between were getting sweetheart deals from municipal governments to construct housing that even today remains vacant.  Grunge music, with its teenage angst and dissonant chords was deafening a generation of children.  It was a time of corruption, greed, speculation, and rampant killing all over the West.  If anything, it was a time when Eastern civilization was on the ascendancy, with China gaining Most Favorable Nation trading status with the US in a trade partnership that put China at a distinct advantage.  The Thai Baht and many other currencies were rising against western currencies.  

...would be a very relevant way to look at it, at any epoch you will find some mess, the cultural model of the 90s in the 'West' was still the a model of universal reconciliation of people though, where the domination of markets was step by step accepted, where 'West' thought it was the good part of the world and that everybody should dance together on the beat of World Music, with Michael Jackson as the singer of the song indeed. It was the dominating model. One can say it's shallow or arrogant, it might kinda be, but it could has also been genuine and awkward.

In term of tolerance and reconciliation, it was also within the Western society, 90s were when the 'Gay Culture' became mainstream and very well accepted in the media, at least here, as opposed to the 80s in which it had to bear the stigmatization of deviants responsible of bringing AIDS to the society, beside the already present average homophobia. Not telling homophobia disappeared in the 90s, but the 'Gay Culture' was very well accepted in the  dominating cultural model.

Still on that you could also speak about the entering of Hip-Hop in the dominating cultural model, street wear began fashion and rap became mainstream, and all of this was mainly carried out by ethnic minorities in Western countries.

And Will Smith, a black man, was the hero of the 1st very big apocalyptic movie in which USA (the dominating power) saved the whole word from ETs destruction (Independence Day). But well, the great president was the classical young and dynamic white American, and the one who did the sacrifice to screw ETs was a good old American white guy. ^^. Also you had The 5th element, not sure whether it's famous in US since it's a French production, but Luc Besson has been smart enough to take Bruce Willis, might have helped, in which the president of the US, which still were the dominating power, and still those who saved the world, even in a French movie and even if happening in the future, well, was black (maybe the 1st time in a movie?). Luc Besson is so '90s multicultural model'.




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tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2011, 10:02:55 AM »
« Edited: October 03, 2011, 10:25:41 AM by Benwah [why on Earth do I post something] Courseyay »

What is the probability that, in spite of 9/11 terrorist attacks, future generations will tend to see the years 1989-2008 as a single unit? An era characterized by neo-liberalism, third way politics, and essential optimism. A case could be made for the 'Long Nineties' lasting from November 9, 1989 to September 15, 2008.

I would kinda disagree. Since the 90s and the 2000s would be totally different psychological paradigms.

As I tried to show the 90s were a model of cute universal reconciliation, and yeah, essential optimism and rather consensual politics, since yeah, markets had kinda won the mainstream thought, and it seemed that the main thing we had to do was to step by step go toward more and more tolerance for everybody, this carried by the dynamics of multiculturalism and Gay Culture.

And internationally, so far the USA showed the face of a fancy dominating power, with Clinton laughing all over the world, even with the old 'Russian enemy', and bombing the 'nasty Serbs' (and yeah, some were quite nasty) while the European powers took the initiative of nothing there. USA had gained an image of 'big nice guy' in the 90s, and while people would still see it as an imperialist power, the fascination for this cultural model still worked, and for example I think some American tales like Pretty Woman might have been the peak of the fascination of a lot of people around the world for this culture. And it 'finished' by a brilliant worldwide giant firework all over the world for the Millennium.

But, a matter of time latter, a second plane has hit the second tower of the WTC. And this meant it couldn't be an accident but the most giant terrorist attack against a country. Totally new psychological paradigm came. Clinton wasn't here anymore, was lil Bush, who, besides his density, showed to the whole world that the USA could act like like cow-boys anywhere in the world if they want. They sent a whole army to fight a terrorist organization. They invaded an other country then, they did it under blatant lies, that even some of their most serious papers bought, the regime took measures that reduced democracy in their own country, the torture in US prisons all over the world was violently thrown in the face of everybody, and the world could see what Guantanamo did of the principles of Justice. And water-boarding wasn't torture anymore.

Wow! Changed!

And all of this might have been what had some impacts on the culture within 'West', since the 2000s would have been some kinds of 'nihilistic' years.

Nihilistic at all levels.

1st politically, the USA just didn't give a f**k about Rights of other people in the world, and even in their own country as said above.

Nihilistic economically, 9/11 led to a still more deregulated economy, markets became totally crazy and it was an orgy of money in the financial world no matter how much it could screw some parts of the economical world, some totally crazy things such as the mix of over complexified financial titles (for which the students of Paris Dauphine, in the great anti-capitalist France, had the reputation to be masters to build those mystic algorithms and were searched by financial institutions all over the world), that, amongst other things, contained the glorious machines to economically screw citizens that trusted it: subprimes.

Nihilistic culturally, less and less limits in what was shown in the TV (and I speak from a country who seems to have some of the less trashy things, more control here Tongue) as much psychologically than physically, porn culture became the norm, over easy to access to everything about it on Internet for anybody, which was far from the few porn VHS and magazines only existing in the 90s, and a porn culture influencing the 'normal culture', through ads and music clips notably, humor reached degree zero, Jackass been famous all around the world by doing just all the stupid things that most people wouldn't dare to do (ok, some stuffs are funny, but sometimes they are just...jackasses), happy slapping became a trend and could be even seen as a game, music became more aggressive in several different ways (metal became mainstream, in France some rap turned more and more aggressive, in USA it was crowded of money and gave the impress it was the only value that mattered, or aggressive pop, in France you also had hardcore Tek (hardcore techno music), or also just more dark, Gothic became more popular than ever, in the 90s people enjoyed party and ecstasy and cocaine weren't that common, in the 2000s people enjoy put their mind upside down and are open minded to all kinds of chemical drugs.

And I could add a lot more, but this post is long enough so far. In short we passed kinda in one day, from the 'cute shallow 90s' to the 'tough nihilistic 2000s'.

Clear change of model of culture, the 2000s seems to just have 'no limit' as a model.

In term of domination it's kinda tied though yeah. During both decades USA dominated the World, with a fancy face in the 90s, with an aggressive face in the 2000s. But the peak definitely was the 90s. The 2000s was the clear rise of challengers, and especially of the big one, China. And yet, yeah, since 2008, besides having challengers, we have 'West', and especially USA from my point of view (Tongue), who are seen economically over-crippled.

The big question is to what all of this will lead the 2010s. It could be the time of all possible things, the worst and the best, depending of where you are in the world (and I'm glad to be in Europe, Tongue again), maybe some years of transition overall, dunno, and maybe things will accelerate and we would cut with a 'decade pace' which so far was kinda respected since the late 60s I'd say, since, personally, I would cut them like that since then (and this is the end of this post Grin Tongue):

70s: 1967-1979

From a big generational revolution that had moral, political, and economical aspirations of which the 1st big shot might have been the Monterey Festival, to the end of the revolutionary romantism with the Iranian revolution. A revolution which 1st made people dream by its size and its anti-imperialism, and which killed the dreams when it turned dark, with in between during the decade the defeat of new economical aspirations (anti-capitalism), those being step by step eaten by the moral revolution, which is individualism and personal development overall, something which was a wonderful philosophy for a development of capitalism.

80s: 1979-1989

Confirmation of the end of economical aspirations, Reagan and Thatcher succeed to impose their economical model to the world, France tried to resist a bit by electing the socialo-communistes in 1981 with Mitterand, which was going to 'change the life!', but it couldn't last long, economical rigor came back in 1983. 1989, fall of the Mauer, Markets have definitely won against Marx. Money has been everywhere in show-business, some culturally resisting stuffs look more radical (punks, which shows a kind of end of resistance), what remains of anti-capitalism remains only expressed by the more radical trends as well (remains mainly far-left terrorism, with Italy and Germany as big examples).

90s: 1989-2001

From the Mauer to the WTC (each time something falls).

2000s: 2001-2011

From the War on Terror that began with 9/11, to the Arab Revolution(s) that began on the 14th of January. The death of Ben Laden happening this year is as Arab Revolution(s) one more thing that makes change of psychological era.  

2010s: 2011-who knows...

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tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2011, 10:26:44 AM »

And because not everybody might have reached the end of the preceding posts, maybe a bonus relevant question:

What's Western Culture?
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2011, 10:43:44 AM »

And because not everybody might have reached the end of the preceding posts, maybe a bonus relevant question:

What's Western Culture?

Europe+USA+Canada+Austrailia+New Zealand. I don't know if countries south of USA count. Mabye.
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« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2011, 10:52:58 AM »

And because not everybody might have reached the end of the preceding posts, maybe a bonus relevant question:

What's Western Culture?

Europe+USA+Canada+Austrailia+New Zealand. I don't know if countries south of USA count. Mabye.

Yeah, I know the countries that would be part of 'West', I was rather asking about an eventual definition of the 'Western culture', not the geographical area.

And, in that list, you would still have to geographically define 'Europe'. Grin Tongue
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2011, 10:57:29 AM »
« Edited: October 03, 2011, 11:10:32 AM by Mynheer Peeperkorn »



You may add the southern cone of South America (Uruguay, Argentina, and Chile and Southern Brazil to a lesser extent), where European immigration from 1870 to 1950 turned to be the majority of the population.

And I would 't consider orthodox Europe as part of Western Culture.
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Peeperkorn
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« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2011, 11:13:20 AM »
« Edited: October 03, 2011, 11:17:58 AM by Mynheer Peeperkorn »

And because not everybody might have reached the end of the preceding posts, maybe a bonus relevant question:

What's Western Culture?



Europe+USA+Canada+Austrailia+New Zealand. I don't know if countries south of USA count. Mabye.

Yeah, I know the countries that would be part of 'West', I was rather asking about an eventual definition of the 'Western culture', not the geographical area.

And, in that list, you would still have to geographically define 'Europe'. Grin Tongue

It depends on the author.

Better question: What is culture?
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phk
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« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2011, 04:17:38 PM »

That is one good post there, Benwah.
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