Mexico 2012

[batmacumba]

PS is an all but irrelevant minor party in Argentina - you could have mentioned the now defunct PSD in Mexico, for that matter. Who cares what they are, really. Costa Ricans (Arias types, the PLN) are now perceived in local politics as "right-wingers" - and, anyway, Costa Rica is smaller than many of the Mexican states, hardly could be called a major country.

Whatever Peron was, he wasn't "rigthwing" either, at least within the local political scene. Of course, "peronism" is an omnivorous ideology. But Kirchners are peronists - and you can hardly call the current argentinian government "rightist". Peronism, like PRIism and APRism are the archetypal "Latin left" movements - you'd be hard-pressed to argue that these were not the most influencial such movements in the continents' history.

Brasil and Chile (and, ok, Costa Rica) provide the notable exceptions, which I've mentioned from the outset. But Brasil is a world of its own, with an extremely strange politics, and it is not even Spanish-speaking. So, other than Chile and Costa Rica, where else have you had "liberal leftists" in government of a Spanish American country for any considerable length of time?

Of course, all this merely serves to highlight the inadequacy of the usual "left-right" terminology. What's left in one country, is right in the other and these things even change across time in the same country (see Costa Rica).  My point is precisely that: what is normally considered "left" in Latin America would be considered "right" in contemporary Europe.

Southwards up.

South America.

Classifying Perón as left is quite controversial. Classifying Peronism is even more. As with Vargas, there were fascist and antifascist tendencies amongst the supporters. As there were leftist and rightist wings, not merely groups more on the left or more on the right.
Chile is already out, by your own analysis.
I'm failing to see any relation between leftists and fascism in Uruguay.
Vargas is miles away from being accepted as a leftist inside Brazil, even in his democratic tenure. He was more an aggregator of anticonservative and anticommunist positions. Re-founded PTB was always seen as a conservative party.
There never was a left in Paraguay outside intellectual circles.
Bolivia is also already out.
Well, in Peru your analysis works.
Unless I'm forgetting something really important, in Ecuador as in Uruguay.
I'm really not aware of any relation between Colombian liberals and fascism. But I'm open to information I may lack.
Venezuelan left has an old tradition of antifascism and the more traditional parties got out Chávez coalition early. I also wouldn't relate him with fascism so easily. Which are your points for this relation? I see him much more as having an unsolved relation with Leninism (some weird uncomplete-non-Marxist-Leninism than any fascist concept).
French Guyana is generally listed as Latin-america, but here is not the case (at any understanding).

So, only the one Southern-American country that (this is my very own and personal perception, don't ask me why) I perceive as being culturally like Central America qualifies for your generalization.


Central America.

Well I must confess, my knowledge here is quite fragmentary...

What would be the fascist left in Panama?
Costa Rica is out of the generalization, obviously.
Also, what about Nicaragua? El Salvador? Honduras? I only know their tradition of Marxist left, TBH.


So, for what I can see, It seems that you're extrapolating Mexican politics to the rest of the region. Perón, Vargas, Chávez, are (were) not the PRI.

[batmacumba]

He´s also right when he says that the usual terminology "left-right" doesn´t work in many Latin American countries.

I don't agree with such kind of statement in any country that is at least semi-industrialized. Well... Maybe on Southeast Asia.

[quote author=yellow brick road link=topic=142171.msg3317028#msg3317028 date=But I think that he´s absolutely missing the point when he tries to identify left with fascist totalitarism in Latin America. This continent is pretty complex and every country deserves his own analysis.
[/quote]

I second this.


BTW, my impression of Mexican politics is that It reached the 1930's 20 years before and got out 70 years after. What about nowadays, does the PRI still have some identifiable wing based on any, at least lose, idea, or are them just a bunch of whores, like the average contemporary Latin-American politicians?

[batmacumba]

  (Brazil I don't count - it's not really part of the community, not being Spanish speaking).

[batmacumba]

In the name of God, why is not Brazil a part of the Latin American community? We were talking about Latin and not Spanish America. Brazil is politically and economically integrated in the continent and in fact is the real and almost the only superpower there. And they have a strong desire of being integrated; even the teaching of Spanish language in the school is compulsory.

Until Mercosul/r creation, It was very weird for us to be 'classified' together the hispanic countries. The average attitude towards hispanics wasn't too much different of that one can expect of Anglo-americans. We simply understood that we needed to integrate with our neighbours and build stronger cultural relations, in order to develop together. I really don't understand why some countries behave as they want to be the fancy neighbour inside a crappy neighbourhood.
Actually, It is a strong belief in our culture, that neighbours should support one each other. That's why I never understood an old-fashioned idiotic feud between Brazilians and Argentinians, which is, thankfully, fading throughout new generations.
Mexico, being the bigger economy on the north of the region, should keep on building stronger economic relations with Central America. It would be better for the country and for the region.

Is any of the candidates addressing this issue?

[batmacumba]

Quadri has just proposed a free-trade agreement with China )

I can't believe. Nobody is that dumb.

[batmacumba]

EPN has shown some table where Mexico is nearly last in AL in something. Pity he didn't say in what )

The least meridional.

[batmacumba]

Among Reforma subscribers (clearly, not an independent group ) ), so far JVM gets 4.8, EPN gets 3.4, AMLO 2.8 and Quadri 2.3. Very unfair to Quadri - he IS the best.

Not with the Chinese platform.

[batmacumba]

AMLO is pledging to be FDR. Literally )

AMLO=FDR=OMG

[batmacumba]

Quadri proposes creating a Mexican version of the Goethe Institute (to be called Octavio Paz Institute) to promote Mexican culture abroad.

This is a clever cultural policy. Weird, but clever.

[batmacumba]

EPN is calling for North American integration.

As dumb as Quadri's oriental orientation.

[batmacumba]

EPN is calling for North American integration.

As dumb as Quadri's oriental orientation.

It is THE thing Mexico has to do.

It will finish with Mexico. Thanks all the deities humanity has ever believed, the ALCA went into a natural abortion.

[batmacumba]

Quadri has just proposed a free-trade agreement with China )

I can't believe. Nobody is that dumb.

It's not dumb at all. BTW, Mexico has just removed all special tariffs against Chinese products. And it's normal tariffs are tiny, anyway. That would open Chinese markets, with minimal impact on our side.

Free trade agreements only work when one of the countries is not unable to completely destroy the others economy. Otherwise, It will happen.

[batmacumba]

As part of his foreign policy AMLO promises 100% university coverage in Mexico.

For foreigners?

[batmacumba]

Quadri is the only one to remember Central America exists.

Proposes "recovering CA", Mexican investments in the region,  and giving Central Americans the same rights as Mexicans in Mexico.

Clever. Again, weird but very, very clever.

[batmacumba]

Quadri is proposing to prepare for Cuban transition to democracy, so that Mexican companies can benefit.

Clever. And It ain't weird at all. Brazil is just waiting to do It.

[batmacumba]

AMLO says "free trade agreements are not a panacea". Production should be supported. B-r-r.  But he is saying it well.

I don't know how He said It. But the core of It is plain right.

[batmacumba]

JVM has proposed universal social security (including minimal pension from the age of 70).

Wow! Wouldn't expect. Is It demagogic bull[Inks] or is there any chance she does
It?

[batmacumba]

Quadri proposes changing the drug policy - treating it as a medical problem.

Quadri seems good when He's not talking about economy.

[batmacumba]

JVM again attacks the PRI/PRD - for fiscal irresponsibility in the states they govern. Attacks AMLO for lack of transparency and corruption in DF when he governed (and EPN for the same in Mexico state).

How feasible is that (and what's the real impact on the average corruption perception)?

[batmacumba]

Quadri is the only one to ask "how to pay for this?"

He has chutzpah - talking about education being the most important thing ) And about improving the quality of teacher training - and about testing teachers ) Wow!

This is that kind of good proposals that needs to be taken carefully.
    -  education being the most important may mean "let's just training people for tasks". This will just guarantee underdevelopment.
    -  evaluating teachers without previously giving them better conditions and training (even if only for tasks) is the best and more demagogic way to make education a big [Inks]ing dump.

[batmacumba]

Quadri, I think, is proposing to change housing policy to develop cities, not so much distant suburbs, as it is now - the housing agency to be given cabinet status.

This is clever in principle. But It can turn into a simple Marathon of real state market, to built more and fast - and the result can be even worse than stupid suburbanization.

[batmacumba]

It will finish with Mexico. Thanks all the deities humanity has ever believed, the ALCA went into a natural abortion.

Not at all. It is Mexico's chance to develop: Mexican monopolies have to be disolved in North American markets.

The whole Mexican economy will be dissolved. That's the problem. It's the kind of drug that really ends with the disease. It kills the patient, so the disease is gone.

EDIT.   Unless, sure, You're seeking Puerto Rican status...

[batmacumba]

Quadri, I think, is proposing to change housing policy to develop cities, not so much distant suburbs, as it is now - the housing agency to be given cabinet status.

This is clever in principle. But It can turn into a simple Marathon of real state market, to built more and fast - and the result can be even worse than stupid suburbanization.

They've been building millions of houses without public transit or infrastructure in open fields around the cities. W/ public money, in part.

Oh sh*t. And Paulo Maluf made school. What else, are they building stupid viaducts all around?

[batmacumba]

Oh sh*t. And Paulo Maluf made school. What else, are they building stupid viaducts all around?

Yes, of course )

My Kthulhu. Or they've killed all urbanists, or else they need to be killed.

[batmacumba]

The whole Mexican economy will be dissolved. That's the problem. It's the kind of drug that really ends with the disease. It kills the patient, so the disease is gone.

Mexico has been enormously successful in trade competition. There is no reason why Mexicans won't be able to continue doing it. And, of course, disolving national economy in the greater North American economy is the point - we suffer from our own monopolies and oligarchies, making them part of the greater North American economy would remove their poison.

As I've put on the edit.