Israel general discussion

[Hnv1]

Israel already can make the cost of war too high for Arabs - it's got nuclear weapons.

If it can get them on target.  Imagine if the Arabs had something like Iron Dome and an effective air force plus atom bombs of their own.  That's not anything that'll happen in our lifetimes, but never is a very long time.

Let’s suppose they do, it’s still unlikely they’ll achieve the political unity required to be surpass the Israeli edge. Even when we were almost on parity and they were almost United through Nasser that wasn’t enough.

The Arabs will never be a true existential threat to Israel (or the region), it’s the Iranians and the Turks down the road.

Israel's existential problem is it can't ever afford to lose a war, while the Arabs can.  I don't see the Turks trying to reestablish the Ottoman Caliphate.  Not even Erdogan is that crazy. Potentially the Iranians might try to get revenge for Purim, but Iran is more focused on dealing with the Sunni at the moment.  Israel is more a useful scapegoat and a way for Iran to show that Shias are more devoted than Sunnis than a central focus of Iran.  (Not that not being the focus makes Iran any less of a threat to Israel. If anything, it makes Iran more of a threat since they are less likely to do anything unless they think it'll actually work.)

We lost the 2006 war and nothing happened. Losing a war doesn’t mean unconditional surrender anymore.

And I was talking about the very long run regarding Turkey

Israel lost that war in the same sense as the US lost the Vietnam War.  Israel didn't achieve its intended objectives, but considering that the IDF returned home rather than reoccupied lost territory after the cease-fire, it is not a loss like Poland 1939, France 1940, Germany 1945, or ROC 1948 were.

Losing wars like that is the outlier not the standard now

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Israel lost that war (the 2006 war) in the same sense as the US lost the Vietnam War.  Israel didn't achieve its intended objectives, but considering that the IDF returned home rather than reoccupied lost territory after the cease-fire, it is not a loss like Poland 1939, France 1940, Germany 1945, or ROC 1948 were.

Losing wars like that is the outlier not the standard now

Agreed, but that is what Israel faced in 1948 and potentially 1973 tho that wasn't the stated Arab goal of the Yom Kippur War. Other than those two wars, Israel hasn't faced an actual existential threat, just the consequences of living near neighbors who really wish it wasn't there but know they don't have the strength to get rid of Israel.

[Hnv1]

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Agreed, but that is what Israel faced in 1948 and potentially 1973 tho that wasn't the stated Arab goal of the Yom Kippur War. Other than those two wars, Israel hasn't faced an actual existential threat, just the consequences of living near neighbors who really wish it wasn't there but know they don't have the strength to get rid of Israel.

48 was different. But even if the line would broken in 73 Egypt would have sitting ducks once they tried to get out of the SAM umbrella for 450 km of open desert roads. Syria wouldn’t be able to push beyond the Heights anyhow

[America Needs R'hllor]

A little controversy from the last couple days that shows just how goddamn backwards our country is:

A bridge is supposed to be built in the most travesed road in the country, to make life much easier for people who want to walk through. They decided that it's impossible to shut down this road during the week, so they'd do it in weekends. The Haredi Rabbies started sending their brainwashed zombies to protest, and the weakling Likud Minister Yisrael Katz immediately ordered the works in the weekend stopped. Now, the works will be suspended in half a year (a way of saying "let the next government handle it").

So, to summarize, important works to improve our national infaustracture were halted because of a bunch of theocratic 100 year-olds. Honestly, if ever the secular Israelis get the power to enforce our policies unimpended by religious\haredi parties, I'd support a zero-thoughtfulness policy- send public transportation through their neighbourhoods during weekends, take down fences that prevent cars from driving through their neighbourhoods in shabbat, and if they try violence, respond appropriately. I'm sick and tired of this tyrannous, theocratic population and as they showed by passing a law allowing their Interior Minister to prevent secular municipalities from letting businesses open during shabbat, and their forceful shutdown of works in the secular fortress of Israel (Tel Aviv), they clearly don't have any regard for OUR way of life. We should have none for theirs.

[NewYorkExpress]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/middleeast/israel-case-4000-sara-netanyahu/index.html

[quote]Sara Netanyahu, the wife of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is suspected of bribery in Case 4000, one of the ongoing investigations facing the Israeli leader, a police investigator said at a court hearing Thursday morning.

One of the biggest cases facing Israel's Prime Minister, Case 4000 deals with the relationship between the Ministry of Communications -- at a time when Netanyahu held the position of communications minister alongside the premiership -- and Israeli telecommunications firm Bezeq.

Prosecutors say Benjamin Netanyahu advanced regulatory benefits worth up to 1 billion shekels (approximately $280 million) to Shaul Elovitch, Netanyahu's friend and Bezeq's controlling shareholder. In exchange, prosecutors say Elovitch gave Netanyahu favorable news coverage on an online news site he owned called Walla! News.

Thursday's hearing, held in the Tel Aviv Magistrate's Court, was about Elovitch's assets, which have been frozen by police. Elovitch, who proclaims his innocence, is suspected of fraud, bribery, money laundering, corporate breach of trust, and more.

Questioned by Elovitch's lawyers, police investigator Uri Kanar said, "(Sara Netanyahu) is a suspect in the case. She was interrogated under caution for bribery."[

"Correct."

"The claim, if I understand it, is that Mrs. Netanyahu commits, together with the Prime Minister, a felony of taking bribes. Is that correct?"

"Correct."

In response to the statements made in court, the Netanyahu family released a statement dismissing the allegations.

"What is new in this absurd suspicion? So, the police said it. These things never happened," the statement said./quote]

Is this, in addition to the accusations against her husband, going to be enough to force the Prime Minister out?

[Wolf]

Gaza is understandable, but I can't support the settlements.

The settlements--or at least the large ones--are useful because they help prevent overcrowding in Israel proper. Israel has a rapidly growing population and is thus going to have a more and more severe overpopulation problem as time goes on. Thus, redirecting some of Israel's population growth towards the settlement appears to be a good idea.

[Wolf]

Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.

Two words: Living space.

[Hnv1]

Oh great a troll poster. IQ and Living Space (I assume you know what it refers to?)

I'll just ignore your presence hoping you disappear

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Oh great a troll poster. IQ and Living Space (I assume you know what it refers to?)

I'll just ignore your presence hoping you disappear

He's already been banned as a sock.

[Silent Hunter]

How easy would land reclamation from the Med be?

[NewYorkExpress]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/ny-state-senate-candidate-julia-salazar-netanyahu-aide-sexually-assaulted-n908721

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At this point, it's only going to get worse for Netanyahu.

[Hnv1]

How easy would land reclamation from the Med be?

Technically? no idea, i supposed it wouldn't be too hard but it will have a damaging affects to coasts all the way up to Turkey (the sand sweep from the nile goes along the shoreline)

Politically, I don't think neither Israel or Egypt will mind.

[NewYorkExpress]

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/16/netanyahu-dermer-israel-ambassador-825863

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What makes anyone think that Netanyahu or anyone else in the Israeli Cabinet cares about sexual harassment or Women's rights?

[DavidB.]

What makes anyone think that Netanyahu or anyone else in the Israeli Cabinet cares about sexual harassment or Women's rights?

Let's rephrase this to show you how absurd this sounds:

- Spokesman of PM has allegedly committed sexual assault and hasn't yet been dismissed, probably because nothing's been proven yet
- Six years ago, one Netanyahu aide was dismissed over sexual harassment
- Netanyahu's 20-something son, with no professional relationship to the government whatsoever, made a few "locker-room comments" to his friends when he went out in some Tel Aviv nightclub, and this was recorded because he's the PM's son

Clearly this means Netanyahu and nobody else in his entire government, which consists of six different parties, cares about women's rights!1!1!!!!!11!1!1!

[danny]

The municipal elections are happening in a month and a bit so I stated a thread in the elections board:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=302017.0

[Silent Hunter]

Syrians forces shot down a Russian jet while Israel was dropping bombs on Iranians and we didn't talk about it?

It's a crazy world and lots of other things were going on. Also, Israel has conducted so many airstrikes in Syria now it's no longer news.

The shootdown appears to have been a major foul-up by Syrian Air Defence.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Syrians forces shot down a Russian jet while Israel was dropping bombs on Iranians and we didn't talk about it?

It's a crazy world and lots of other things were going on. Also, Israel has conducted so many airstrikes in Syria now it's no longer news.

The shootdown appears to have been a major foul-up by Syrian Air Defence.

The Russians initially blamed it on Israel and their media filled up with fire-breathing antisemitism, then Putin said it's an accident and their media stopped talking about it. Now they flip-flopped yet again and are blaming it on Israel. However, their punishment of "giving Syria S-300 anti-air missiles" is BS- this defence system will go only to Russian forces to defend themselves. It might limit the range of operations a bit, but the IDF is prepared for it.

[Silent Hunter]

The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

They have all of 9 F-35s in service at present, tho with more on the way. Plus the F-35 isn't perfect in its stealth.A full scale S-300 deployment would be a serious impediment to the way the IDF does things, but not a game changer.  Now if the Russians were to deploy the S-400, then the excrement would be hitting the rotating blade.

[dead0man]

The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

They have all of 9 F-35s in service at present, tho with more on the way. Plus the F-35 isn't perfect in its stealth.A full scale S-300 deployment would be a serious impediment to the way the IDF does things, but not a game changer.  Now if the Russians were to deploy the S-400, then the excrement would be hitting the rotating blade.

There are two in Syria right now (at least).  cite

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[Hnv1]

The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

#war isn't a computer game.

The S300 constrains the actions of the F15I who are the core jet of the AF, their long range could cause trouble to close air support to ground operations. and numerous other problems.
It's not the game changer, but it definitely makes aerial superiority more challenging 

[dead0man]

The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

#war isn't a computer game.

The S300 constrains the actions of the F15I who are the core jet of the AF, their long range could cause trouble to close air support to ground operations. and numerous other problems.
It's not the game changer, but it definitely makes aerial superiority more challenging 

only during soft war like is going on now.  If the sh**t were to actually hit the fan, you've got to imagine the SAM sites will be one of the first things hit.  I have air force and Israeli biases admittedly, but I have full faith the IAF would have complete air superiority over any potential local adversaries within 12 hours of any serious conflict.  Allowing the F15s to do what they do best.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The IDF now has F-35s, so the S-300 isn't much use there.

They have all of 9 F-35s in service at present, tho with more on the way. Plus the F-35 isn't perfect in its stealth.A full scale S-300 deployment would be a serious impediment to the way the IDF does things, but not a game changer.  Now if the Russians were to deploy the S-400, then the excrement would be hitting the rotating blade.

There are two in Syria right now (at least).

Yeah, but those remain in Russian hands, it's not as if they're handing them over to the Syrians.  Nor would it make much sense for them to do so right now. Syria has yet to show that it can handle its existing air defenses very well.  That said, with new systems they may end up doing better than the IDF expects. It wouldn't be the first time that the IDF underestimated the effectiveness of SAMs

[PSOL]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-strike/palestinians-strike-in-support-of-israels-arab-minority-idUSKCN1MB2QT

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[PSOL]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-village/bedouin-families-appeal-to-merkel-to-help-to-block-israeli-expulsion-idUSKCN1MC1TG

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I should note that Israel also forces sedentary lifestyles on these folks, actively barring their generational movements across the desert.