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Author Topic: Israel general discussion  (Read 225437 times)
danny
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« Reply #1225 on: November 20, 2017, 06:42:14 PM »

This has probably been asked a million times, but what's the difference between Shas and UTJ?

UTJ is for Ashkenazi Haredi, and Shas for Sephardi Haredi.
At its height Shas appealed to a lot of non Haredi Sephardi in a way that UTJ has never expanded beyond their base, although that based on recent polling I doubt much of that is left.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #1226 on: November 21, 2017, 05:33:54 AM »

^ The biggest cause of the decreased amount of support for Shas, to me, seems Rav Yosef's death, which was always going to affect their numbers and popularity in the long run even if it did not lead to a sudden collapse in the last GE.
This.
There weren't that many ultra orthodox sephardis so Shas relied heavily on support of sephardi who were less religious but were drawn by the Rabbi (and Deri'i for a time).

now he's dead (finally), the party is splintered, and Deri'i has a greedy image even in his own public. 4-5 seats is actually the core of sephardi haredi.
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #1227 on: November 23, 2017, 01:04:05 PM »

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-usa-jews/israeli-official-under-fire-for-comments-on-american-jews-military-service-idUKKBN1DN1B7

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This has to hurt Israel, attacking an ally like this, right?
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #1228 on: November 23, 2017, 02:34:41 PM »

It's definitely going to hurt Hotolevy's career. Working in her favor is that it's likely a popular opinion in conservative US quarters, sadly. But she's doing a lot of damage when it comes to Israel's Jewish outreach efforts.
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dead0man
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« Reply #1229 on: November 23, 2017, 06:50:21 PM »

Is she wrong?  Do American Jews not serve in the US military?  Does it even matter if she's right or not, should you not say truths that will inevitably piss some people off, or does it depend on the truth and the voting record of the pissed off people?
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Angel of Death
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« Reply #1230 on: November 23, 2017, 07:15:23 PM »

LOL
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #1231 on: November 23, 2017, 07:35:31 PM »


That's just embarrassing.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #1232 on: November 23, 2017, 08:16:06 PM »

Is she wrong?  Do American Jews not serve in the US military?  Does it even matter if she's right or not, should you not say truths that will inevitably piss some people off, or does it depend on the truth and the voting record of the pissed off people?

The issue is than she is claiming than, due to them not serving in the US military, they don't understand the Middle East.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #1233 on: November 23, 2017, 09:54:56 PM »

Is she wrong?  Do American Jews not serve in the US military?  Does it even matter if she's right or not, should you not say truths that will inevitably piss some people off, or does it depend on the truth and the voting record of the pissed off people?

Except that they aren't truths, at least not in the way anti-Semites would twist such remarks.

http://secular.org/files/mldc-ripsdemographics_0.pdf

As the above link shows, most religious groups--including Jews--are pretty evenly represented among the US military in proportion to their numbers in their age group in the general population.  The exceptions are the irreligious and Baptists who are over represented, and Adventists who are way over represented. I mean seriously, looking at those numbers, I'm tempted to think the FBI propably ought to keep an eye on the SDA. Wink

Granted, compared to Israel when all Jews who aren't Haredi freeloaders (who in all their study seem to ignore Ecclesiastes 1:16-18 since it would inform them that such excessive study of the Hebrew scriptures is a vanity) serve in the military, few American Jews serve, but the same is true for pretty much every American ethnic or religious group.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #1234 on: November 23, 2017, 11:26:43 PM »

It could have been an indelicate way to state that due to America's lack of a universal draft, the majority of American Jews never see military service. (Same as every group in America) But it couldn't have been said worse, if so.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #1235 on: November 24, 2017, 12:35:56 AM »

It could have been an indelicate way to state that due to America's lack of a universal draft, the majority of American Jews never see military service. (Same as every group in America) But it couldn't have been said worse, if so.

In any case, whether USA has a draft or not, it's not the business of any foreign government.
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America Needs R'hllor
Parrotguy
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« Reply #1236 on: November 24, 2017, 01:35:56 AM »

It could have been an indelicate way to state that due to America's lack of a universal draft, the majority of American Jews never see military service. (Same as every group in America) But it couldn't have been said worse, if so.

In any case, whether USA has a draft or not, it's not the business of any foreign government.

Yeah. A universal draft is actually inhumane and goes against basic democratic values, and moreso, causes immense pain for thousands of youths who just aren't made for a military system. So even though it's a necessary evil in Israel today, she shouldn't parrot it around like some high civilizational achievement.
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Parrotguy
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« Reply #1237 on: November 24, 2017, 04:22:02 AM »
« Edited: November 24, 2017, 04:25:14 AM by Parrotguy »

Health Minister Litzman, of the Haredi UTJ Party, announced his resignation because of... maintenance works in the Israeli Railways in Saturday. Works that are necessary in order for the trains to work on schedule in Sunday to Thursday, when people need to get to work. This is despite the fact that the works were heavily minimized- the Rabbe of the Ger sect, who holds Litzman by his you-know-what was unsatisfied with it.
Apparently his party will remain in the coalition, so we won't see new elections, and he will attempt to keep control of the Health Ministry by being a Deputy Minister again, but the Supreme Court denied that after the last elections so it's unclear if he can. Nice to see that our Health Minister cares about our health! Smiley
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Hnv1
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« Reply #1238 on: November 24, 2017, 08:44:57 AM »

As to Hotobly's remark, she's right in one thing, American Jews need to but out. AIPAC or Jstreet I don't care for either's opinion. It has nothing to do with how much hardship they experience they're simply not Israeli and their money is manipulating the political system here from afar.

As to Litzman, I would remind everyone that Netanyahu went to the 2015 elections with an agreement with Shas and UTJ already in hand (as they all admitted afterwards). I would be very suspicious of any Haredi attempt to suddenly take down the best government for them in well, forever.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #1239 on: November 27, 2017, 07:38:00 AM »

Fast becoming an African banana republic. Likud are passing a bill that will prohibit the police from publishing findings from investigations that they deem should be prosecuted. You guessed it, the bill will hold retroactively in part on the investigations of one Netanyahu
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America Needs R'hllor
Parrotguy
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« Reply #1240 on: November 27, 2017, 07:46:26 AM »

Fast becoming an African banana republic. Likud are passing a bill that will prohibit the police from publishing findings from investigations that they deem should be prosecuted. You guessed it, the bill will hold retroactively in part on the investigations of one Netanyahu

Yeah, it seems to me increasingly likely that Bibi will escape the investigations relatively unscathed. This man is undermining out democracy in very concerning ways- he's slowly turning into the next Putin\Erdogan.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #1241 on: November 27, 2017, 02:58:52 PM »

Hyperbole, because free and fair elections aren't seriously endangered in Israel. The apt comparison is with parties like Croatian HDZ, who appeal to the masses with nationalism but are basically in power to line their pockets and allow the oligarchs to continue to do the same at the expense of the population.
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Parrotguy
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« Reply #1242 on: November 27, 2017, 03:09:09 PM »
« Edited: November 27, 2017, 03:11:10 PM by Parrotguy »

Hyperbole, because free and fair elections aren't seriously endangered in Israel. The apt comparison is with parties like Croatian HDZ, who appeal to the masses with nationalism but are basically in power to line their pockets and allow the oligarchs to continue to do the same at the expense of the population.

But are they? When the justice system is castrated and threatened, I do fear for the rest of our democratic institutions.
And I'm not so sure that Putin necessarily rigs the Russian elections, at least not completely- he's just wildly popular and very effective in crushing political opposition. Though, I'm not saying that Bibi is doing this yet, or that he's that popular.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #1243 on: November 27, 2017, 03:26:55 PM »
« Edited: November 27, 2017, 03:28:45 PM by DavidB. »

There's not much need to rig an election if you can shut down all independent media, take out your political opponents, and prevent real opposition parties from standing in elections, but Putin does it anyway. All these regions in the Northern Caucasus don't really vote for Putin by more than 90% with similar turnout.

I know hyperbole is prevalent in all Israeli media, from left to right, to debilitating levels, but surely you are too smart to believe that what has happened in Russia or even Turkey is possible in Israel. Surely you know even better than I that Israel is a mature democracy in which the population would not accept a crackdown on basic democratic rights and in which the system has enough checks and balances to prevent this from happening. Which does not mean that what Netanyahu is doing now is acceptable, of course, or that citizens should close their eyes for it -- on the contrary.
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America Needs R'hllor
Parrotguy
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« Reply #1244 on: November 27, 2017, 03:49:03 PM »

There's not much need to rig an election if you can shut down all independent media, take out your political opponents, and prevent real opposition parties from standing in elections, but Putin does it anyway. All these regions in the Northern Caucasus don't really vote for Putin by more than 90% with similar turnout.

I know hyperbole is prevalent in all Israeli media, from left to right, to debilitating levels, but surely you are too smart to believe that what has happened in Russia or even Turkey is possible in Israel. Surely you know even better than I that Israel is a mature democracy in which the population would not accept a crackdown on basic democratic rights and in which the system has enough checks and balances to prevent this from happening. Which does not mean that what Netanyahu is doing now is acceptable, of course, or that citizens should close their eyes for it -- on the contrary.

It probably won't happen, yeah, and we have quite many checks and balances. But, I am worried about what appears to be the population becoming apathetic to all that the Likud is currently trying to do. Much thanks to Netanyahu, who urged this trend on, the Israeli society became deeply polarized, and it became a matter of left and right. Large swathes of the public seem to be blindly loyal to Netanyahu, despite everything, so yes, it does worry me.
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Zanas
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« Reply #1245 on: November 28, 2017, 09:20:51 AM »

No democracy is safe in these wildly reactionary times.
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Santander
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« Reply #1246 on: November 28, 2017, 11:08:06 AM »

Tomorrow marks 70 years since UN Resolution 181.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #1247 on: November 28, 2017, 03:45:01 PM »

Tomorrow marks 70 years since UN Resolution 181.
Can't wait for the next 70.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #1248 on: November 28, 2017, 05:35:12 PM »

Shambles and shame. Close down the legislature, stop the pretense.
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America Needs R'hllor
Parrotguy
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« Reply #1249 on: December 27, 2017, 12:04:40 PM »

According to Haaretz, it seems like there's going to be a compromise in Meretz, giving the primaries to the party members rather than making them open, and Zehava Galon will stay on as leader. Also, the article says Gilon opposes the compromise, but that it's very likely to pass in the coming days.
Hnv, am I right to assume that it's a compromise between the Galon and Zandberg wings, ensuring them a majority against the Gilon people?
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