Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 19, 2017, 11:34:07 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Be sure to enable your "Ultimate Profile" for even more goodies on your profile page!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  Forum Community
| |-+  Off-topic Board (Moderators: Gustaf, Torie, The Mikado)
| | |-+  *Warning* Very Contraversial Topic: Is there anything to this?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: *Warning* Very Contraversial Topic: Is there anything to this?  (Read 6606 times)
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« on: September 20, 2004, 03:28:33 pm »
Ignore

I have been thinking recently that we haven't had a really good discussion about a contraversial topic on this forum for a long time.

I was watching the History Channel today and they were discussion the "Hitler Schools".  The had a chart that showed all of the different "races" of Germany and what their various attributes were said to be.

I got curious and desided to look it up on the internet.  That was when I cam e accross this site:

http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/hj2.htm

I read it rather throughly.  At first glance, one is tempted to write the whole thing off as juck science, but then I started thinking and wondering, "Is there anything to this"?

Now, make no mistake, I'm not buying into Nazi ideology, but this presents a worthy question to be contemplated:

"What does race have to do, if anything, with the personal attributes of the individual"?

Further More:

"Do you believe there is any truth to this chart, outside of the obvious attempts to uber-glorify the Nordic race?"

"Are certain races generally more studious, introverted/extroverted, logical/feeling than others"?

Finally Just For Fun:

"If applicable, what "race" would you fit into"?

I'm curious to see the response.





Once More:


I AM NOT BUYING INTO NAZI IDEOLOGY BY POSING THIS QUESTION
Logged

migrendel
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1681
Italy


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2004, 03:46:09 pm »
Ignore

There are observable differences between the races. I am inclined to believe that they are much more a product of environment, economics, culture, and national origin than anything else. However, the races are genetically different, and with our current knowledge base, I just can't say definitively.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Left/Right: -10.00

Registered in Massachusetts as a Democrat for Fantasy Elections, though now living in Rome.
Nym90
nym90
Modadmin
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16321
United States


Political Matrix
E: -5.55, S: -2.96

P P P

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2004, 03:48:46 pm »
Ignore

It's an interesting question. However, scientific studies have shown fairly conclusively that there is no connection...it's entirely cultural. Far more nurture than nature.

Genetics plays a limited role, but people are far more likely to be similar to their parents than they are to be similar to other members of their race.
Logged
??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31213
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2004, 03:54:36 pm »
Ignore

It's an interesting question. However, scientific studies have shown fairly conclusively that there is no connection...it's entirely cultural. Far more nurture than nature.

Genetics plays a limited role, but people are far more likely to be similar to their parents than they are to be similar to other members of their race.


Then explain why races have been breed by oppressors to be stronger or weaker. Example : Slave owners often had "big boned" black women give birth to children of very strong/tall black men. It is obvious that genetic "pluses" can be built upon and weaknesses be bred out of humans.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2004, 04:06:43 pm »
Ignore

It's an interesting question. However, scientific studies have shown fairly conclusively that there is no connection...it's entirely cultural. Far more nurture than nature.

Genetics plays a limited role, but people are far more likely to be similar to their parents than they are to be similar to other members of their race.

However, on a psychlogical level, studies have conisitantly shown that children adopted at birth tend to favor their real parents far more, personality wise, than their adopted parents.  Psychology, at least for now, side more on the nature side of the debate.
Logged

English
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1187


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2004, 04:14:31 pm »
Ignore

Interesting.
In Britain, people definately do look different depending on which region your in, even today.
People in the South of England for instance do look different to the Scots or Northern Irish. Scots do have paler skin and fairer hair.
That said, many people, particular the English are now very mixed. For instance I'm largely of English decent but with bits of Irish, Welsh and Italian!
Lots of Italians and French emigrated to England many decades ago. Perhaps this explains the darker complexion in England?
Logged

I live in the UK and regard myself as a socially liberal, economic centrist. I vote for the British Labour party and support the Canadian NDP and US Democratic parties.


Economic -2.38
Social -1.74
muon2
Modadmin
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12902


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2004, 04:53:09 pm »
Ignore

It is nearly impossible to use race in any genetically meaningful way. The concept of race as used today dates to the early European explorations and the stark differences in appearance they enconutered as they hopped hundreds of miles between ports. It is interesting that the Arab traders working at the same time from town to town across two continents found no stark differences. The variations were gradual as one traveled and the concept of race made little sense.

It is true that isolated populations are likely to contain unusual genetic distributions. However, the differences in genetics are generally in the distributions, not in the individuals. Also the diversity of populations within the grand racial categories are generally larger than the differences between races. The ethnic groupings of the mid-second millenium should take their place alongside the flat unchanging earth and the earth-air-fire-water view of matter.
Logged



Great American Eclipse seconds before totality showing Baily's Beads.
Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2004, 04:56:20 pm »
Ignore

The problem with the Hitler's ideology was not that certain races have better abilities than others, but rather that Hitler took everything to an extreme. Scientific research proves that races are different genetically, in that they are prone to different illnesses, have different heights, etc. Now what does this means? It means that people of Bantu heritage have a higher capacity to be good runners, while people of Arab heritage have a lower capacity. Now, this is not saying that ALL Bantus are good runners, and ALL Arabs are bad runners; obviously there are cultural, habitual, and familiar influences that lead to the success of a runner. But there are obviously certain skills in races that other races don't have. This is simply the mode of evolution.

Let's use dogs as an example. The Fox Terrier is a small dog (usually no more than 17" to the shoulder) with a long snout. The purpose of the dog is to catch vermin. Breeding and evolution has made the dog adapt, and so the dog has a higher capacity to be a skilled vermin hunter. However, the Irish Wolfhound (my dogs Wink) is a very large dog (mine are 30" and 32" to the shoulder, I believe), and obviously isn't going to easily be able to catch vermin because of its large size. However, the dog is excellent at hunting wolves, because of its large size. Once again, this is not to say that all Irish Wolfhounds are good wolf hunters and all Fox Terriers are good vermin hunters.  My Irish Wolfhounds have never seen a wolf, and I’d imagine they’d run away from the wolf if they ever saw one, and become prey instead of predator. Meanwhile, I’m sure many Fox Terriers could become excellent wolf hunters (though highly unlikely, possible). One again, familiar, cultural influences and habitat can change anything.

Hitler’s ideology is simply a perversion of this fact. I don't like to use the term "race" unless nessecary because I simply don't believe it exists. However, I believe that people living in habitats do exist, and adaption determine one's skill.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 04:57:50 pm by Brambila »Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
Guillermo
Newbie
*
Posts: 19
View Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2004, 05:05:41 pm »
Ignore

I found a lot of what was on that site to be very interesting.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2004, 05:11:45 pm »
Ignore

The problem with the Hitler's ideology was not that certain races have better abilities than others, but rather that Hitler took everything to an extreme. Scientific research proves that races are different genetically, in that they are prone to different illnesses, have different heights, etc. Now what does this means? It means that people of Bantu heritage have a higher capacity to be good runners, while people of Arab heritage have a lower capacity. Now, this is not saying that ALL Bantus are good runners, and ALL Arabs are bad runners; obviously there are cultural, habitual, and familiar influences that lead to the success of a runner. But there are obviously certain skills in races that other races don't have. This is simply the mode of evolution.

Let's use dogs as an example. The Fox Terrier is a small dog (usually no more than 17" to the shoulder) with a long snout. The purpose of the dog is to catch vermin. Breeding and evolution has made the dog adapt, and so the dog has a higher capacity to be a skilled vermin hunter. However, the Irish Wolfhound (my dogs Wink) is a very large dog (mine are 30" and 32" to the shoulder, I believe), and obviously isn't going to easily be able to catch vermin because of its large size. However, the dog is excellent at hunting wolves, because of its large size. Once again, this is not to say that all Irish Wolfhounds are good wolf hunters and all Fox Terriers are good vermin hunters.  My Irish Wolfhounds have never seen a wolf, and I’d imagine they’d run away from the wolf if they ever saw one, and become prey instead of predator. Meanwhile, I’m sure many Fox Terriers could become excellent wolf hunters (though highly unlikely, possible). One again, familiar, cultural influences and habitat can change anything.

Hitler’s ideology is simply a perversion of this fact. I don't like to use the term "race" unless nessecary because I simply don't believe it exists. However, I believe that people living in habitats do exist, and adaption determine one's skill.

You would be very suprised.  My Boarder Collie had never seen sheep in her life until just a few weeks ago, yet, when she saw them, she instictivly knew what to do and started herding them.

At the same token, we never trained her to be a herding dog, but she life to herd family members and even our cats.
Logged

Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2004, 05:20:32 pm »
Ignore

Seeing that Border Collies are the smartest dogs in the world, they don't simply succeed in shepherding, but have also mastered many other activities, such as retrieveing, hunting, etc. Which brings me to yet another point- certain dogs are smarter than others. I would wonder if this is the same case with humans.

My point is that certain races have genetic differences that create capabilities and flaws.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2004, 05:32:56 pm »
Ignore

Seeing that Border Collies are the smartest dogs in the world, they don't simply succeed in shepherding, but have also mastered many other activities, such as retrieveing, hunting, etc. Which brings me to yet another point- certain dogs are smarter than others. I would wonder if this is the same case with humans.

My point is that certain races have genetic differences that create capabilities and flaws.

I agree with you, I was answering the statement about your Wolfhounds.  They might, indeed, revert to instinct if they saw a Wolf, Despite never having seen one.  Which make the point the I have, which is that nature can be a very strong force.
Logged

12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2004, 05:40:03 pm »
Ignore

I would tie my last post into the idea that certainly, there are different charecteristics between different races and ethnicities of people.  We are all humans, don't get me wrong, but if you believe in elvelutionary theory, then you must believe that the variations in different people are present to improve the survival skills of that group in thier climate.  Indeed, given some millions of years of development, we might eventually have not only different races, but different spiecies of humans, given enough genetic and enviromental variations, though with new technology, this seems unlikely.

However, do these differences account for personality differences in individuals?  In nature important to personality.  Studies on individuals would seem to indicate that nature is very important.  Is it important on a race-by-race basis though?  I'm still in the air about that.
Logged

??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31213
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2004, 05:43:13 pm »
Ignore

My if Hitler and his nutty ideas had never had come to surface scientists and the like could have actually researched the things you speculate Super w/out the fear of being deemed racists or bigots.
Logged
The Duke
JohnD.Ford
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9394


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: -1.23

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2004, 06:00:55 pm »
Ignore

So let me get this straight Super, you buy into Nazi ideology?

Wink

Kidding, obviously.
Logged

Shut you hole... Conservatism is dead. I hope I get to see your head paraded on a pike with it.
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2004, 06:09:09 pm »
Ignore

My if Hitler and his nutty ideas had never had come to surface scientists and the like could have actually researched the things you speculate Super w/out the fear of being deemed racists or bigots.

Very true.
Logged

12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2004, 06:12:33 pm »
Ignore

On the bright side of things, I think sceince has become much more out in the open about researching the differences between the races and gender in past decade.
Logged

David S
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5256


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2004, 06:19:32 pm »
Ignore

My if Hitler and his nutty ideas had never had come to surface scientists and the like could have actually researched the things you speculate Super w/out the fear of being deemed racists or bigots.

I have to agree with States.  

I would add that anyone who thinks there are no differences between races is ignoring obvious facts.

I'll give you a tip; In boxing never bet on the white guy.
Logged
muon2
Modadmin
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12902


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2004, 07:41:26 am »
Ignore

I would tie my last post into the idea that certainly, there are different charecteristics between different races and ethnicities of people.  We are all humans, don't get me wrong, but if you believe in elvelutionary theory, then you must believe that the variations in different people are present to improve the survival skills of that group in thier climate.  Indeed, given some millions of years of development, we might eventually have not only different races, but different spiecies of humans, given enough genetic and enviromental variations, though with new technology, this seems unlikely.

However, do these differences account for personality differences in individuals?  In nature important to personality.  Studies on individuals would seem to indicate that nature is very important.  Is it important on a race-by-race basis though?  I'm still in the air about that.
The key to asking relevant questions is to avoid the large categories that are called races, and instead ask about smaller ethnic populations confined to a small region. In these cases there may be significant genetic variations compared to the larger human population. The small region requirement is important, because as groups spread out intermarraige with other populations will wash out some of the genetic uniqueness.
Logged



Great American Eclipse seconds before totality showing Baily's Beads.
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2004, 10:08:17 am »
Ignore

If you are into this sort of thing a very interesting site is

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/index.html

This site will give some very interesting information with a Nordic bias.  Of particular interest to me was the Caucasian subrace section and the links to photo supplements of Harvard? anthrologist Carleton Coon's book The Races of Europe.  I don't know how valid it all is but it is interesting nonetheless Genetic info is also pretty interesting.  

Wow, thanks.  I was looking for a site that didn't approuch the topic in a pseudo-science way.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 10:35:33 am by supersoulty »Logged

Niles Caulder
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 641


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2004, 10:12:13 am »
Ignore

The question being: "Is there anything to this?"

Answer
Logged

The chance to use your voice cost countless lives.  Choose your words carefully; they're weapons of war.
elcorazon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2954


P
View Profile
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2004, 10:20:41 am »
Ignore

you people aren't saying you actually believe in evolution are you?  That would be so, so, pagan and unchristian.  Evolution is bringing down are society.  Don't you know that we were all created in God's image.  I sure hope they don't start teaching this stuff in the schools.  We need vouchers to make sure I can send my kids to a proper Christian school to avoid this type of insanity.

[/sarcasm]
Logged


"The most important thing to remember is, no matter what anybody tells you, it is never, ever unpatriotic or un-American to question anything in a democracy"
stry_cat
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 367


Political Matrix
E: 6.25, S: -1.38

P
View Profile
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2004, 12:47:13 pm »
Ignore

By asking this question you're letting the Nazi's win.  Tongue

Sorry but this thread was having too much of rational discussion here.

Anyway as we be come a more global society will any real or imagined differences become less?  Or will people continue to breed with others with similar traits?
Logged

Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2004, 02:32:31 pm »
Ignore

I would tie my last post into the idea that certainly, there are different charecteristics between different races and ethnicities of people.  We are all humans, don't get me wrong, but if you believe in elvelutionary theory, then you must believe that the variations in different people are present to improve the survival skills of that group in thier climate. Indeed, given some millions of years of development, we might eventually have not only different races, but different spiecies of humans, given enough genetic and enviromental variations, though with new technology, this seems unlikely.

Yes, I agree completely. I also agree the possibility that we might evolve into two different species rather then races.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20666
Ukraine


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2004, 05:52:00 pm »
Ignore

By asking this question you're letting the Nazi's win.  Tongue

Sorry but this thread was having too much of rational discussion here.

Anyway as we be come a more global society will any real or imagined differences become less?  Or will people continue to breed with others with similar traits?

Reseach seems to suggest thar people are simply more attracted to those of their race/ethnicity.  This doesn't hold true for everyone and certainly true love and the changes in culture and "globalization" today might indeed lead to a more "unified" human race.  I do doubt, however, given simply human nature and the nature of attraction specifically, means that we will never "abolish race".

That's just my theory.  I could just be short-sighted.
Logged

Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines