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Author Topic: Civil War in Syria  (Read 132620 times)
politicus
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« Reply #475 on: June 16, 2013, 12:28:58 pm »
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An attack on Israel would be a major mistake at this point. With Hezbollah and Iranian support they have a good chance of defeating the rebels. Opening up another front will jeopardize this.



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« Reply #476 on: June 16, 2013, 12:31:54 pm »
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Indeed, that seems like the stupidest of plans.
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Was that wrong? Should I have not done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing was frowned upon, you know, Ďcause I've worked in a lot of offices and I tell you people do that all the time.
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« Reply #477 on: June 16, 2013, 03:52:59 pm »
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I think they're probably smart enough to not strike first, at least. Perhaps they're just trying to deter Israel from getting more involved in the conflict?
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Cory
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« Reply #478 on: June 16, 2013, 09:51:36 pm »
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Here is a more alarming version of this:

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Syrian forces training to storm Israel's border

TEL AVIV Ė Thousands of Syrians are currently training in Iran to serve as a force ready to storm Israelís northern Golan Heights, according to informed Middle Eastern security officials.

The officials said between 3,000 and 5,000 Syrian men were being trained in the event Syrian President Bashar al-Assad decides to open a front against the Golan Heights, which borders Syria.

The training is being overseen by the Al Quds Force, the elite unit of Iranís Revolutionary Guard responsible for the countryís extraterritorial operations, the sources said.

The Syrian forces are slated to return to their country next month, the sources added.

This is not the first report of Iran aiding Syria in preparations for ground attacks against Israel.

In May, WND reported the Iranian-backed Hezbollah was establishing training camps near the Syrian capital of Damascus to prepare for possible guerrilla warfare targeting the Golan Heights, according to informed Middle Eastern security officials.

The officials said the camps are training Palestinian groups as well as special units connected to Assadís Baath party for operations against Israel if such actions are green-lighted by Syria in the near future.

The officials said that for the time being, Russia has urged Assad against taking any action targeting Israel.

On Saturday, the New York Times reported that as a way to keep the pressure on Assad, American warplanes and antimissile batteries will remain in Jordan following a military drill currently underway.

The Times further reported on CIA training for the rebels in Jordan under a covert program as well as a U.S. campaign to send weapons to the rebels via Jordan.

The Washington Post further reported on a U.S. decision to send weapons to the rebels through Turkey.

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It was actually kind of interesting until I noticed it was World Net Daily.
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ingemann
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« Reply #479 on: June 17, 2013, 06:19:46 am »
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A weaker, gayer Assad would be great for the region, as he will recognize Golan Heights as Israel's territory and he will not give arms to Iraq's terrorists.

In foreseen future no Syrian government will recognise the Israeli annexation of the Golan Heights, in fact even if the rebels are like their wqestern supporters dream about a bunch secular liberal democrats, they will still not recognise the Israeli claims. As for giving weapon to "terrorists" in Iraq, that's a thing of the time when American desicion makers had wet dreams about invading Iraq, since USA have mostly pulled out of Iraq and the Iraqi government is quite friendly toward Assad, I really doubt you see him sending support to the Iraqi Sunnis today.
 
...and BTW your post is exactly why we should stay out of the Syrian conflict as you people keep making it to a issue about Israel, which may be the worst possible way to way to look at it.
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njwes
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« Reply #480 on: June 19, 2013, 02:33:48 am »
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Apparently we're only going to be supplying the rebels with small arms and ammunition. I'm sure that'll prove useful Tongue I've gotta hand it to Brobama on this one, he's really having his cake and eating it too.
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njwes
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« Reply #481 on: June 19, 2013, 03:54:24 pm »
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Great piece in the NYT today

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/magazine/the-price-of-loyalty-in-syria.html?hp
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ingemann
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« Reply #482 on: June 19, 2013, 04:41:27 pm »
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Thanks, it's one of the greatest pierce I have read yet. 
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Citizen (The) Doctor
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« Reply #483 on: June 20, 2013, 12:29:52 am »
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Really good piece illustrating the lack of any real good-bad divide in this conflict.
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« Reply #484 on: June 20, 2013, 11:19:59 am »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.
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politicus
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« Reply #485 on: June 20, 2013, 11:27:12 am »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.

Alawite is de facto an ethnic identity more than a religious one per se, you cant just convert out of it. Its like the old Ulster joke, "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?". "I am an atheist". "Yes, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?". Only even more true in Syria.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #486 on: June 20, 2013, 11:36:28 am »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.

Alawite is de facto an ethnic identity more than a religious one per se, you cant just convert out of it. Its like the old Ulster joke, "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?". "I am an atheist". "Yes, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?". Only even more true in Syria.

You might be well-advised to not try and explain this to BRTD.
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njwes
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« Reply #487 on: June 21, 2013, 07:19:43 pm »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.

What if you were devout and didn't want to convert out of it? There are people out there with sincere religious convictions, though I know it's very hard for many lefties to comprehend Wink

More generally, I'm really not convinced that the religious minorities would have been treated any better had there been a relatively swift and peaceful transfer of power. As the article indicates, sectarianism began to become apparent very very early on, before the situation had even devolved to all-out civil war. I'm also thinking of the Coptic Egyptians' experience as a parallel
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« Reply #488 on: June 21, 2013, 08:08:18 pm »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.
lol BRTD
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #489 on: June 21, 2013, 10:48:23 pm »
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The US has secretly been training Syrian rebels at bases in Jordan and Turkey since late last year:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-syria-20130622,0,4448399.story
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« Reply #490 on: June 21, 2013, 11:18:42 pm »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.
lol BRTD

yes yes I know, no one outside the US EVER converts and it's impossible for Hispanics to be Lutherans. Because CULTURE OMG!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 11:25:50 pm by Wrecking Ball and Chain »Logged

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« Reply #491 on: June 21, 2013, 11:31:47 pm »
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Eh, the problem is, rebels taking up arms against the government don't necessarily have any moral high ground against said government, since they're using the same brutal and murderous methods to achieve ends that may not be any better.

Sure, the peaceful protesters had the high ground over Assad, and him violently cracking down on them is what makes him brutal and murderous, but many of those people were Alawites. Early in the uprising, there was a lot of Alawite unrest, and Latakia participated in the mass protests. It was a protest center; Assad cracked down violently on them too. So who says that Assad owns Alawitism? Why should the Alawites be forced to give up their faith just because it is shared by Assad? Why shouldn't he be the one who has to convert? Is there any evidence that he is even devout?

There is a myth that the same people who were protesting in March 2011 are the ones who later took up arms, but this is mostly false. Most of the protesters were urban, in places like Latakia, and then died down after the civil war began. The people who took up arms were rural conservative elements who still form the backbone of the opposition. In urban areas, the Assad regime has a lot of genuine support, and not just among Alawites.
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« Reply #492 on: June 21, 2013, 11:44:40 pm »
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I agree it's unlikely that Assad is truly a sincere Alawite (no one would be surprised if it was revealed he has hordes of whiskey and scotch stashes in the presidential palace), but that just provides more of a point against that Alawites are "forced" to support him. I mean if I lived in a country where a nominally Christian dictator (obviously not really Christian of course) was carrying out such a brutal campaign of repression against non-Christians, I'd obviously renounce membership in whatever church he had if it was supporting him. I could still be a Christian independent of that obviously.

And once again, just about all troop estimates show that no more than 20% of the anti-Assad forces are Islamist. Remember in 2011 how we kept hearing how all of the Libyan rebels were radical Islamists with all the "evidence" that the regime was providing to back up its claim? It's amusing how many folks were willing to parrot Gaddafi's propaganda.
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« Reply #493 on: June 22, 2013, 12:40:46 am »
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And once again, just about all troop estimates show that no more than 20% of the anti-Assad forces are Islamist. Remember in 2011 how we kept hearing how all of the Libyan rebels were radical Islamists with all the "evidence" that the regime was providing to back up its claim? It's amusing how many folks were willing to parrot Gaddafi's propaganda.

But I don't think anyone's claiming that all of the anti-Assad forces are Islamist. 20%, if that figure is true, is quite a lot, and certainly sufficient to cause enormous and even intractable problems in Syria if/when Assad falls.
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« Reply #494 on: June 22, 2013, 12:40:57 am »
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It's worth noting that since Assad Sr. took power many decades ago, the regime has gone to great lengths to try to downplay the heretical elements of Alawite belief or erase them altogether. Evidently Damascus was well worth the Hajj.
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« Reply #495 on: June 22, 2013, 04:40:22 am »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.
lol BRTD

yes yes I know, no one outside the US EVER converts and it's impossible for Hispanics to be Lutherans. Because CULTURE OMG!
Well no, you actually offer a valid example of conversion, under the threat of force.
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politicus
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« Reply #496 on: June 22, 2013, 06:00:58 am »
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It's worth noting that since Assad Sr. took power many decades ago, the regime has gone to great lengths to try to downplay the heretical elements of Alawite belief or erase them altogether. Evidently Damascus was well worth the Hajj.

This is an important point and I think that if the regime falls we are likely to see a renaisance of genuine Alawism with a remergence of the elements scrapped or downplayed under the present regime.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 06:13:43 am by politicus »Logged

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« Reply #497 on: June 22, 2013, 09:46:10 am »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.
lol BRTD

yes yes I know, no one outside the US EVER converts and it's impossible for Hispanics to be Lutherans. Because CULTURE OMG!
Well no, you actually offer a valid example of conversion, under the threat of force.

The force here isn't for belonging to some psuedo-Islamic offshoot but for supporting a brutal dictator. As Beet pointed out one does not need to support a murderous to dictator to continue to claim to believe in this fake version of Islam.

I find it odd though you'll cite under force to be a "valid" example of conversion, but somehow a Hispanic in the US becoming a Protestant entirely of their own decision isn't?
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politicus
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« Reply #498 on: June 22, 2013, 09:58:23 am »
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Trying to portray the people who started this in a sympathetic manner is pretty vile. The article says "The price of loyalty"...yeah loyalty to a murderous brutal dictator.

If I was an Alawite in Syria, I'd just convert out of it. No way I want to be on the side of a brutal murderer like Assad.
lol BRTD

yes yes I know, no one outside the US EVER converts and it's impossible for Hispanics to be Lutherans. Because CULTURE OMG!
Well no, you actually offer a valid example of conversion, under the threat of force.

The force here isn't for belonging to some psuedo-Islamic offshoot but for supporting a brutal dictator. As Beet pointed out one does not need to support a murderous to dictator to continue to claim to believe in this fake version of Islam.

Who are you to claim the Alawites got it wrong? You got a hotline to Allah?
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« Reply #499 on: June 22, 2013, 10:02:04 am »
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I agree with the view of most Muslim groups (and Xahar) that Alawites are too divergent from Islam to be considered Muslim. Now mind you that as I am not Muslim I don't consider this a negative, since I don't consider real Muslims to be any more correct than the Alawites are. It's like if a Muslim or an atheist was saying Mormons aren't Christian.
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