Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 18, 2017, 06:03:26 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Be sure to enable your "Ultimate Profile" for even more goodies on your profile page!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash, Kalwejt)
| | |-+  Civil War in Syria
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 [23] 24 25 26 27 28 ... 36 Print
Author Topic: Civil War in Syria  (Read 132788 times)
AkSaber
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6329
United States


Political Matrix
E: 9.35, S: -8.26

View Profile
« Reply #550 on: August 24, 2013, 02:27:13 am »
Ignore

And if the US says something like this you would be the first to claim it invalid because of that, but somehow Russia gets a free pass from you.

I know I will not believe a word the interventionists say. The last 11 years have proven those people will exaggerate, lie, and manufacture evidence to support their accusations.

I agree; manipulation and forgery of evidence has been done numerous times by Western nations to justify military intervention (see Vietnam, Kosovo, Iraq, etc.). That certainly doesn't mean you should trust what Moscow says.

Is it sad I trust Russia more than our country?

It kinda feels that way... O_o
Logged
dead0man
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28530
United States


View Profile
« Reply #551 on: August 24, 2013, 02:42:54 am »
Ignore

Is it sad I trust Russia more than our country?
Yes, quite.  Understandable though...sort of.  I mean, there is little reason to trust what western govts say when it comes to this sort of thing....but there seems to be even less reason to trust what Putin and his cronies say.
Logged

Was that wrong? Should I have not done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing was frowned upon, you know, ‘cause I've worked in a lot of offices and I tell you people do that all the time.
dead0man
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28530
United States


View Profile
« Reply #552 on: August 24, 2013, 03:54:53 am »
Ignore

and like many have feared/expected, it's spilling over into Lebanon now.  link
Quote
Twin explosions hit two mosques in the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli on Friday, killing at least 42 people and wounding hundreds, intensifying the sectarian strife that has spilled over from the civil war in neighboring Syria.

The apparently coordinated blasts - the biggest and deadliest in Tripoli since the end of Lebanon's own civil war - struck as locals were finishing Friday prayers in the largely Sunni Muslim city. Lebanese officials appealed for calm.

The explosions in Tripoli, 70 km (43 miles) from Beirut came a week after a huge car bomb killed at least 24 people in a part of the capital that is controlled by the Shi'ite Muslim movement Hezbollah.

A recent resurgence of sectarian violence in Lebanon has been stoked by the conflagration in Syria, where President Bashar Assad is fighting a largely Sunni-led rebellion. Both Hezbollah and radical Sunni groups in Lebanon have sent fighters over the border to support opposing sides in Syria.

Medical and security sources said the death toll from Friday's blasts in Tripoli had risen to 42 by late afternoon. Hundreds more were wounded, they said. Earlier, the Lebanese Red Cross said at least 500 people were hurt.

The first explosion hit the Taqwa mosque, frequented by hardline Sunni Islamists, and killed at least 14 people there, according to accounts earlier in the day.

Further deaths were reported from a second blast outside the al-Salam mosque, which the Interior Ministry said was hit by a car laden with 100 kilograms (220 pounds) of explosives.

<snip>

Near the Taqwa mosque blast site, angry men toting AK-47 assault rifles took to the streets and fired in the air while other men threw rocks at Lebanese soldiers nearby.

<snip>

Lebanese officials called for calm as tensions rose in Tripoli, a Mediterranean port that has seen some of the worst Syria crossover violence. Sunni gunmen have sporadically clashed with fighters from the city's minority Alawite sect, an offshoot of Shi'ite Islam to which the Assad family belongs.

Former internal security chief Ashraf Rifi, whose home was damaged by the second blast, warned that Lebanon was facing a gathering storm of violence.

"We are still in the beginning of the storm and we must remain aware and try to protect this nation," he said, speaking outside his home. "This storm has become a huge, grave danger."

Witnesses at the scene of the blasts said anger was rising among locals, who were shouting out accusations that Assad's government or Hezbollah were behind the attack.

<snip>
So, the big question for the west in the next 5 years is....do we side with the hardline Shia/Iranians/Assad/Hezzies or with the hardline Sunnies/Salafis/Wahabists or just let them kill each other (with tens of thousands of innocent Muslims killed in the "cross fire")?  Or is there (hopefully) some third option I'm not seeing.
Logged

Was that wrong? Should I have not done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing was frowned upon, you know, ‘cause I've worked in a lot of offices and I tell you people do that all the time.
Silent Hunter
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6922
United Kingdom


View Profile WWW
« Reply #553 on: August 24, 2013, 04:27:55 am »
Ignore

Actually the French played the main role in wiping out Gaddafi's air force, and that part of the operation went incredibly easy.

Also, for all the stuff that occurred later, the actual invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq went off with very few hitches.
Logged

True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 34078
United States


View Profile WWW
« Reply #554 on: August 24, 2013, 07:36:00 am »
Ignore

Actually the French played the main role in wiping out Gaddafi's air force, and that part of the operation went incredibly easy.

Also, for all the stuff that occurred later, the actual invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq went off with very few hitches.

Wars don't end with the initial invasion tho.  Even if the west limits itself to being the Free Syrian Air Force, much as we did in Libya, Syria will be both costlier and longer than Libya, especially if we also get drawn into the fight against the Syrian Islamic Front.
Logged

Quote from: Ignatius of Antioch
He that possesses the word of Jesus, is truly able to bear his very silence. — Epistle to the Ephesians 3:21a
The one thing everyone can agree on is that the media is biased against them.
Silent Hunter
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6922
United Kingdom


View Profile WWW
« Reply #555 on: August 24, 2013, 12:15:41 pm »
Ignore

MSF says it has treated 3500 with symptoms consistent with that of chemical weapon exposure
Logged

Cory
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3288



View Profile
« Reply #556 on: August 26, 2013, 05:16:40 pm »
Ignore

Secretary Kerry's statement seems to indicate that it is a matter of when, not if the USA intervenes militarily.
Logged
Beet
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 21783


View Profile
« Reply #557 on: August 26, 2013, 05:32:08 pm »
Ignore

I suppose Obama isn't going to ask Congress for a formal declaration of war?
Logged

"Clinton failed, Bush failed, and Obama failed [to start a nuclear war]. I won't fail." - Donald J. Trump
Blue3
Starwatcher
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6964
United States


View Profile
« Reply #558 on: August 26, 2013, 08:19:35 pm »
Ignore

That hasn't happened since World War II.


I highly doubt it will involve any invasion. It will just be missile attacks from air and sea, and some more covert special forces operations. As it should have been 2 years ago. Assad and his regime must go.
Logged
Snowstalker's Last Stand
Snowstalker
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 19327
Greece


View Profile
« Reply #559 on: August 26, 2013, 08:31:45 pm »
Ignore

What we did in Libya won't work. We'd eventually knock out the Syrian Army, but they're in FAR better shape than Gaddaffi's forces were, most of the fighting is in concentrated urban areas, and the country is far more evenly divided than Libya was. There would certainly be NATO casualties, and probably even more FSA casualties (for the record, the FSA is not too much better than Assad) than there would have been had we stayed out.

And of course, the West (and Russia/the USSR and China, let's not leave anyone out) has yet to atone for all the atrocities it has committed against civilians since the end of World War II, so I'm a bit annoyed by Kerry's righteous tone here.
Logged

Mr. Morden
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 35276
United States


View Profile
« Reply #560 on: August 26, 2013, 10:07:31 pm »
Ignore

From reading the media coverage of the likely US military response to Assad's use of chemical weapons....

Sounds like this'll be something like Operation Desert Fox in 1998, when the US and UK bombed Iraq for four days, in retaliation for Saddam Hussein's lack of cooperation with weapons inspectors.  A limited operation of a few days designed to "punish" the target regime, not to dislodge it from power.  No indication that the US or NATO is going to become the air force of the Syrian rebels, a la what happened in Libya.
Logged

My magnum opus is now complete.  Read the complete "The Adventures of Hobo Orgy Guy & Blondie" (now in paperback).

What is your opinion of this thread?

Being a moderator is basically like one giant party.  Except you're the one ruining the party and everyone hates you.
Eraserhead
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 42253
United States


View Profile
« Reply #561 on: August 26, 2013, 11:05:52 pm »
Ignore

Here we go again...

Logged

Update lives again on Atlas After Dark. PM me for info.
AkSaber
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6329
United States


Political Matrix
E: 9.35, S: -8.26

View Profile
« Reply #562 on: August 27, 2013, 02:33:28 am »
Ignore

And of course, the West (and Russia/the USSR and China, let's not leave anyone out) has yet to atone for all the atrocities it has committed against civilians since the end of World War II, so I'm a bit annoyed by Kerry's righteous tone here.

Yeah. When Syria allegedly uses chemical weapons it's the crime of the century.

But when our leaders let depleted uranium be used against completely innocent and defenseless targets... well they got in our way. Roll Eyes
Logged
Benwah [why on Earth do I post something] Courseyay
tsionebreicruoc
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6330
France


View Profile
« Reply #563 on: August 27, 2013, 08:48:46 am »
Ignore

So it seems this time it's the good one. I'd be cautious though since everything has been so disappointing from the beginning in Syria...

Fabius said it can't remain unanswered.
Le Drian, the French Ministry of Defense is in the Gulf.
The Charles de Gaulle, the French aircraft carrier is on the way to Syria.

According to Olivier Ravanello, maybe the only worthy journalist remaining on itélé, the French diplomacy would have told them that something could happen before Monday.

Hollande gonna make a speech in the coming hours.

It has to be confirmed but it's just been told on itélé that Russia would have already said they wouldn't retaliate if some strikes were made in Syria (which would confirm that Russia really only always is what it shows, some pure...



...gonflette (bubbled muscles).

I hardly imagine Russia engaging into retaliations, at least military ones.

Turkey said it didn't care of UN veto, and would open some of its air bases.

So, so far we would have:

France
UK
Turkey
US

So far the most likely would seem something more or less like Libya, the US using tomahawks to destroy some military facilities and French and UK planes in the air to disable facilities too but also maybe striking offensive moving troops, eventually a total NFZ, but this seems less sure. NATO would once again be the logistic base (sight...).

In any case, if there effectively is a coalition, the mission will have to be clearly and loudly defined, and hopefully the official opposition will also be clearly associated to this and will also finally speak with a clear and united voice. Still something more or less like Lybia then.

The earlier this conflict will be sorted out, the better it will be for the whole region, we really don't need a black flag in the Mediterranean sea, and so far that's what we were helping by doing nothing on the long term.

My biggest worry for that whole region remains always the same for a while now, that totally screwed up piece of land decades after decades, Iraq. At all levels, sociologically, economically, politically, religiously, and yeah, notably through depleted uranium, and phosphore in Fallujah, on the health and ecological level. It has the potential to turn in something worse than it's never been in the coming years, and having Syria as a permanent training ground thanks to an ever going civil war was really not helping. Helping the Syrian cause would make that less young Syrians would join the black flags and have war as only perspective for the future. Offering them the perspective of a true solid help not depending on the black or green flag with a sword would make that only true international Jihadists would remain once the regime is moved, that is a few thousands of people, and Iraq and the whole region around really doesn't need more than that to know a deeper destabilization.

All of this being said, one more time, it's Syria, so it still have the potential to be once again freaking disappointing, from all parts.

In any case, still according to Olivier Ravanello, nothing would begin as long as UN observers are there, but hey, UN just said it suspended its mission there for safety reasons.

If something actually happens I wonder who would dare openly make the 1st step...

Barack Obama for the 1st time daring openly opening something?
The UK stopping to be the ever followers of either French or Americans??
Or, once again, France...

Well France has an historical responsiblity in having set this kinda Alawit regime in Syria, and  notably in the building of its military culture, it would have a kind of historical legitimacy/responsibility, outside of the fact that it also happens in an area where it is, at a lot of levels, directly concerned, the hottest spot on Earth nowadays, the beautiful Mediterranean Sea.

Hopefully this association of languages will be stopped to be associated to something shameful the soonest possible...

Logged

14/01/2011: Tunisia!!
11/02/2011: Egypt!
20/10/2011: Libya
02/09/2013: Syria...

Religion Tradition is people's opium...

Money became totally unfair.
Money became totally senseless.
Let's make Money totally useless...

??/??/20??: EU UU!!

Benwah [why on Earth do I post something] Courseyay
tsionebreicruoc
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6330
France


View Profile
« Reply #564 on: August 27, 2013, 09:26:51 am »
Ignore

So for those who would have missed it like me, apparently there's a new thread.
Logged

14/01/2011: Tunisia!!
11/02/2011: Egypt!
20/10/2011: Libya
02/09/2013: Syria...

Religion Tradition is people's opium...

Money became totally unfair.
Money became totally senseless.
Let's make Money totally useless...

??/??/20??: EU UU!!

Joe Republic
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 33762
Kiribati


View Profile
« Reply #565 on: August 27, 2013, 12:49:29 pm »
Ignore




Logged

More and more Republicans every day:

robbin_hunting
Newbie
*
Posts: 9
View Profile
« Reply #566 on: August 27, 2013, 01:13:42 pm »
Ignore

and like many have feared/expected, it's spilling over into Lebanon now. 

Lebanon is a sad story of never ending violence... Hizbullah has weapons, so do Palestinian Refugees, Syrian Refugees, Other Lebanese Political Parties... Lebanon is a war zone, never been an independent and peaceful country ever before.
Logged
Kalwejt
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 48751
View Profile
« Reply #567 on: August 27, 2013, 04:56:16 pm »

Assad and his regime must go.

Cool. Do you have a strategy for what would be next?
Logged

Because Gillibrand sig is too mainstream

A note:

The fascist Kalwejt has once again deleted a whole thread I made in the International board today.
LastVoter
seatown
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4404
Thailand


View Profile
« Reply #568 on: August 27, 2013, 10:18:54 pm »
Ignore

Assad and his regime must go.

Cool. Do you have a strategy for what would be next?
That's not the point.... Just turn it into a company town for an oil giant.
Logged
TNF
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13505


View Profile
« Reply #569 on: August 28, 2013, 07:05:40 am »
Ignore

That hasn't happened since World War II.


I highly doubt it will involve any invasion. It will just be missile attacks from air and sea, and some more covert special forces operations. As it should have been 2 years ago. Assad and his regime must go.

Do tell us more about this secret strategy you've been let in on.
Logged
Benwah [why on Earth do I post something] Courseyay
tsionebreicruoc
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6330
France


View Profile
« Reply #570 on: August 28, 2013, 07:21:45 am »
Ignore

and like many have feared/expected, it's spilling over into Lebanon now. 

Lebanon is a sad story of never ending violence... Hizbullah has weapons, so do Palestinian Refugees, Syrian Refugees, Other Lebanese Political Parties... Lebanon is a war zone, never been an independent and peaceful country ever before.

Hmm, pardon?

I guess people living there could explain you a kind of difference between what happened between 1975 and 1990 there, and what happened since then.

Some violence in Lebanon? It already happened and would continue to happen here and there at times, and indeed the worse it be in Syria, the worse it could turn in Lebanon.

Something as harsh as they knew in the past?

Really, you never know, but if they wanted an actual new civil war, it's a long time it would have begun I'd say...

People aren't machines who make civil wars for the sake of matching their reputations, I suppose at least.
Logged

14/01/2011: Tunisia!!
11/02/2011: Egypt!
20/10/2011: Libya
02/09/2013: Syria...

Religion Tradition is people's opium...

Money became totally unfair.
Money became totally senseless.
Let's make Money totally useless...

??/??/20??: EU UU!!

robbin_hunting
Newbie
*
Posts: 9
View Profile
« Reply #571 on: August 28, 2013, 09:40:04 am »
Ignore

and like many have feared/expected, it's spilling over into Lebanon now. 

Lebanon is a sad story of never ending violence... Hizbullah has weapons, so do Palestinian Refugees, Syrian Refugees, Other Lebanese Political Parties... Lebanon is a war zone, never been an independent and peaceful country ever before.

Hmm, pardon?

I guess people living there could explain you a kind of difference between what happened between 1975 and 1990 there, and what happened since then.

Some violence in Lebanon? It already happened and would continue to happen here and there at times, and indeed the worse it be in Syria, the worse it could turn in Lebanon.

Something as harsh as they knew in the past?

Really, you never know, but if they wanted an actual new civil war, it's a long time it would have begun I'd say...

People aren't machines who make civil wars for the sake of matching their reputations, I suppose at least.

The news are too focused on Syria, so the echos of the Syrian Civil war in Lebanon are almost unheard internationally. The reality is that the whole country is hanging on a thread, there are Kidnappings, assassinations, bombs, high crime, visibly armed militias here and there... I don't know what is preventing Lebanon from slipping into a new civil war, but it certainly isn't "if they wanted an actual new civil war, it's a long time it would have begun", the people who carry the weapons and the civilians aren't the ones to call a civil war... I don't know who calls it, but it certainly not the common people...
Logged
Frodo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16674
United States


View Profile
« Reply #572 on: August 28, 2013, 07:08:16 pm »
Ignore

There is no oil in Syria.

Perhaps not, but getting rid of the Assad regime would further isolate the mullahs of Iran and leave terrorist groups like Hezbollah hanging in the wind and vulnerable to Lebanon (now freed of Syrian domination) and Israel.  I am sure both states would be more than happy to put Hezbollah in its place. 

That is my interest in the matter -geopolitical. 

Personally I am terrified of the prospect of a bosnia-type situation emerging. Supporting any one side would likely just lead to ethnic conflict on an even wider scale. Also I am not so sure that toppling the Syrian gov. would be as easy as Libya (and that obviously took a good amount of time).
------------------------

Well, we avoided intervening for about two years now, and your fears have become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Logged

MasterJedi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20180
United States


View Profile
« Reply #573 on: August 28, 2013, 08:28:29 pm »
Ignore

There is no oil in Syria.

Perhaps not, but getting rid of the Assad regime would further isolate the mullahs of Iran and leave terrorist groups like Hezbollah hanging in the wind and vulnerable to Lebanon (now freed of Syrian domination) and Israel.  I am sure both states would be more than happy to put Hezbollah in its place. 

That is my interest in the matter -geopolitical. 

Personally I am terrified of the prospect of a bosnia-type situation emerging. Supporting any one side would likely just lead to ethnic conflict on an even wider scale. Also I am not so sure that toppling the Syrian gov. would be as easy as Libya (and that obviously took a good amount of time).
------------------------

Well, we avoided intervening for about two years now, and your fears have become a self-fulfilling prophecy.



Didn't you hear, nonintervention is the in thing. All problems are solved by doing nothing (so says people on the left and right) until you actually do nothing and the situation gets worse.
Logged

True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 34078
United States


View Profile WWW
« Reply #574 on: August 28, 2013, 09:48:27 pm »
Ignore

There is no oil in Syria.

Perhaps not, but getting rid of the Assad regime would further isolate the mullahs of Iran and leave terrorist groups like Hezbollah hanging in the wind and vulnerable to Lebanon (now freed of Syrian domination) and Israel.  I am sure both states would be more than happy to put Hezbollah in its place. 

That is my interest in the matter -geopolitical. 

Personally I am terrified of the prospect of a bosnia-type situation emerging. Supporting any one side would likely just lead to ethnic conflict on an even wider scale. Also I am not so sure that toppling the Syrian gov. would be as easy as Libya (and that obviously took a good amount of time).
------------------------

Well, we avoided intervening for about two years now, and your fears have become a self-fulfilling prophecy.



Would intervention two years have necessarily produced a better outcome?
Logged

Quote from: Ignatius of Antioch
He that possesses the word of Jesus, is truly able to bear his very silence. — Epistle to the Ephesians 3:21a
The one thing everyone can agree on is that the media is biased against them.
Pages: 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 [23] 24 25 26 27 28 ... 36 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines