Israel and Palestine

[JohnFKennedy]

When I say state of Israel, I do not mean as part of the USA

I would like to see some views on this and what people think, I am pro-Israel being Jewish and I think the Palestinians made this problem for themselves when they refused Israel's offer of all of the conquered land excluding Jerusalem, or the offer of 45% of the Israel.

[JohnFKennedy]

"50% Israel and 50% Palestine"
or
"Gaza and the West Bank Palestinian, the rest Israel"
or
"Israel offered deal - 45% Palestine 55% Israel".

Voted for "Gaza and the West Bank Palestinian, the rest Israel".

I personally don't think the 50/50 is feasible, it would be impossible to partition.

[JohnFKennedy]

Can I just say, the 45/55 deal was offered a while back and Yasser Arafat refused it and continued terror attacks on Israel, I am for that deal.

[JohnFKennedy]

Can I just say, the 45/55 deal was offered a while back and Yasser Arafat refused it and continued terror attacks on Israel, I am for that deal.

When you say 50-50 ot 55-45 do you mean of the wast bank and Gaza or of the all country? the offer was 96% of the teritories (west bank and Gaza)

I mean of the whole of Israel, I know it was 96% of the territories, after the conquest when they took Jerusalem they did say they would give all but Jerusalem to Palestine if the Arabs would sign a treaty to create peace in the region.

[JohnFKennedy]

are you sure it wasn't offered? I know they offered Gaza and the West Bank at one point, my friend said that they offered 45% of Israel before.

I know for a fact they offered all the land they conquered in 48 during the war with surrounding Arab nations

[JohnFKennedy]

I notice no one here supports it becoming entirely Palestine, or even split 50/50.

[JohnFKennedy]

USA has made a few moves to try and create a Palestinian state, some Presidents have tried to force Israel to do things.... Someone at my school was arguing with me about this, I said Israel gave Palestine an offer of like 45% of the land and they refused and she said it was rightfully all their land, no it frickin isn't, it was originally Israel and the Jews bought lots of it from the Palestinians, not only that but the UN created the country in 1948!!!

[JohnFKennedy]

Frankly, I'm not informed enough about this issue to make a totally qualified judgement. However, I fully support the existence of a Jewish state and Israel's right to exist. So I'm tempted to vote for the first option. But the creation of a Palestinian state comprised of Gaza and the West Bank may go some way to quell the troubles, so that's the option I voted for.

Who knows, maybe one day Jews and Arabs will be able to live side by side in a shared Republic Of Israel And Palestine... yes I know, it sounds totally utopian, but surely that's something worth aiming for.

yes, but doubtful, the problem with a nation of the Gaza strip and the West Bank is that they aren't very well placed geographically, they are not right next to each other.



If you look they are seperated by quite a bit.

One truly great difference between the two countries is that Israel is A DEMOCRACY, whereas Palestine is led by Yasser Arafat, a man who is also head of a terrorist organisation (the PLO) bent on destroying Israel.

Don't worry about being not well informed on the issue, most people are very ignorant regarding it, thus so many people support Palestine, they just see Israeli tanks killing people.

Anybody hear about the recent suicide bomber? a 14 year old kid was forced to become a suicide bomber against his will, they strapped a bomb to him and sent him in, poor kid surrendered to the Israeli army the first chance he got.

[JohnFKennedy]

I notice no one here supports it becoming entirely Palestine, or even split 50/50.

JFK,

The only question for me was whether or not I advocated the eradication of all Palestinians. But since I'm not that amoral, I voted for Israel being the sole state. However, I think Israel needs to do what it's in its best interests, and that may mean a two-state solution in the current political environment where the rest of the world, other than the U.S., seems to be strongly pro-Palestinian.

That's doubtful, I think. Few people like Sharon, but a lot of people are generally pro-Israel.

I don't think Sharon will win re-election, the stunt with Sheik Yassin was more to increase his falling popularity.

[JohnFKennedy]

I notice no one here supports it becoming entirely Palestine, or even split 50/50.

JFK,

The only question for me was whether or not I advocated the eradication of all Palestinians. But since I'm not that amoral, I voted for Israel being the sole state. However, I think Israel needs to do what it's in its best interests, and that may mean a two-state solution in the current political environment where the rest of the world, other than the U.S., seems to be strongly pro-Palestinian.

That's doubtful, I think. Few people like Sharon, but a lot of people are generally pro-Israel.

I don't think Sharon will win re-election, the stunt with Sheik Yassin was more to increase his falling popularity.

Sharon is 76 and will not run in 2007
If his goverment falls befor that time it's b/c a corruption buisness involving his sons

yeah, it has hurt his popularity, doesn't he have pretty low approval ratings at the moment?

Barak was good I believe, he was a good guy, offered peace and land to the Palestinians but they refused, he was assassinated wasn't he?

[JohnFKennedy]

think I may have been confused with Rabin on assassination point.

[JohnFKennedy]

isn't that 666 rather than 6666?

[JohnFKennedy]

markdel man, what have we been so wrong about?

[JohnFKennedy]

no, please do tell , I was confused on the issue.

[JohnFKennedy]

I know the Palestinian tactics have been pretty horrendous, they attacked Israel on Yom Kippur (sp?), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar which is pretty bad. I am not quite sure what you are implying?

[JohnFKennedy]

the point about the media reporting? I read some info on the crisis that was supposed to be pretty impartial.

[JohnFKennedy]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

[JohnFKennedy]

my school stopped teaching the Arab-Israeli conflict like 10 years ago I think it was, they said they "didn't think it would be relevant in the news or have much coverage", man were they wrong.

[JohnFKennedy]

I go to a private school yes, but I think that is probably the real reason, my teacher who was there at the time seems very keen to teach it and thinks it is a real shame.

I knew Palestine was never a country actually, just the region, it encompassed Jordan as well didn't it?

[JohnFKennedy]

there are a lot of anti-Israel people here, and invariably anti-Semites.

I was rather offended by one girl at my school who criticised my Jewish friend and I for not singing in Chapel which our school makes us go to, it is a Christian ceremony so we did not sing and just stood there making a point of our objection and she was like what's the big deal it is the same God, so what? Which some of you may agree with, but I think it is the principle of the thing.

[JohnFKennedy]

Israel has every right to exist, it is historically their land, Israel has more right to exist than some countries.

[JohnFKennedy]

I know, I am saying, that it has just as much right as other countries to exist, Palestine were given the chance and turned it down, despite the offer being generous.

[JohnFKennedy]

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

[JohnFKennedy]

but many people agree with the Palestinian terrorists which is agreeing with terrorism which is just wrong, plain and simple.

[JohnFKennedy]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

Gus I don't know about Sweden but 17% is Italy and the one don't think Israel has a right to EXIST, way more support terrorism (if it's against jews and also americans, not a few left wing europeans were acctually glad about 9/11). And the numbers un Spain, Germany, France, Belguim, Nerherland are way worse

The only people in Europe I know of who were actually HAPPY about 9/11 were Muslim children living in Europe. Most left-wingers aren't evil people who want people to die, you know. No offense, but I actually live here, and I think both you and MarkDel are letting your prejudices carry you away. I am well aware that Europe is not a great supporter of Israel and so on, but I don't think a lot of people actually wish you to die or anything like that.

Lots of people want Israel to be removed though..... terrible thing that.