Is Detroit fixable? How would you fix it?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If I lived near Detroit I'd like to buy one of those super-cheap houses and open a show venue in it.

You willing to invest some serious cash in security and getting it up to code? It'd be cheaper and safer to just rent an actual venue in Minneapolis and be a professional if that's what you want to do with your life.

A house show venue. None of that would be needed, I'd just need a spot in the living room or basement big enough to hold shows and set up a sound system.

Pretty sure there are laws that govern commercial activity. Especially in a residential neighborhood. Even without that, you down for no electricity or heat? And a roof ready to cave in at any moment, with all the potential for lawsuits that that brings. I don't think you get the severity of the disrepair of these houses.

Yes, these house shows tend to be illegal, but they still happen all the time. If tons of people get away with them in Minneapolis and even in Bismarck, ND I'm pretty sure that the police will be a bit more pre-occupied in Detroit. They go on in Memphis too by the way. Obviously I'd need electricity for the soundsystem, but heating wouldn't be an issue most of the time. It's not your top priority when you have a bunch of running around moshing into each other in a small enclosed space, trust me. During the winter I could rent out some industrial heaters. Some guys in Mankato did this whenever they booked winter shows in an unheated barn outside of town. I guess I'd have to get the roof repaired though.

I'll take your word that these illegal house shows happen in Memphis. We have a more than adequate supply if dive bars that would suit the purpose much better, but whatev.

You think Minneapolis doesn't?

If you want to book some touring band and some friends it's much easier and cheaper to just have them play in your basement if you have an adequate basement than deal with some bar and have to worry about if they're already booked or if you'll end up with some other band that attracts a completely different crowd. Plus by default the show will be all ages. I'm surprised you've never heard of these house shows before. They're not uncommon. Even my distinctly un-scene brother has been to one, in the aforementioned Bismarck, ND.

However, I can 100% guarantee you these house shows do not go down in the neighborhoods we're talking about. Your "scene" kids wouldn't last 5 minutes in South Memphis.

Probably not, but that's because it's white people that listen to this music. They don't happen in northwest Minneapolis black neighborhoods either. I have been to one in the notorious crime-ridden and poor Phillips neighborhood, but that also has a non-insignificant white population.

I wouldn't be surprised if illegal hip hop house shows happen in South Memphis (and Northwest Minneapolis).

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Note to forum newcomers: BRTD is really not meant to be taken seriously, especially when he veers onto the subject of any of the following:

• Sneakers O'Toole, a 1020-second bit Family Guy did once about less-than-half-than 10 years ago
• Obepo
• Christianity, especially the hipster version
• Suburbs
• Music (in general)

[Ban my account ffs!]

Note to forum newcomers:  Mr. Moderate's habit of huffing his own farts has jilted his politics noticeably to the right.  He should not be taken seriously on any of the following subjects:

1.  Politics
2.  Breasts
3.  Choice of kitchen appliance brands.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Sneakers O'Toole clip was 20 seconds long, and the episode it's in was aired in 2007, so not even half of 10 years ago.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Well, this thread has veered off track.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

The Sneakers O'Toole clip was 20 seconds long, and the episode it's in was aired in 2007, so not even half of 10 years ago.

I stand corrected. Thank you for adding value to my post. It is appreciated.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well, this thread has veered off track.

Much like Detroit itself, no?

[memphis]

Well, this thread has veered off track.

Much like Detroit itself, no?

This thread is still fixable. It would  be more like Detroit if the mods hijacked the good parts off to another Forum and filled this one with viruses.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well, this thread has veered off track.

Much like Detroit itself, no?

This thread is still fixable. It would  be more like Detroit if the mods hijacked the good parts off to another Forum and filled this one with viruses.

Indeed, indeed. We somehow need to destroy the economic base of this thread as well. Any ideas?

[ilikeverin]

The point of tearing them down isn’t just to remove an eyesore. Abandoned houses breed crime by providing an ideal location for squatters, junkies, drug deals, etc. There have been studies that have shown crime rates are affected by the presence of broken down houses. Have you ever heard of Broken Windows Theory?

It's not just that, too; keeping people spread out means you have to waste a lot of money on police/fire protection, buses, streetlights (oh wait, those are being privatized), etc. that you wouldn't if people were actually at a reasonable density for an inner city.

[Wonkish1]

The point of tearing them down isn’t just to remove an eyesore. Abandoned houses breed crime by providing an ideal location for squatters, junkies, drug deals, etc. There have been studies that have shown crime rates are affected by the presence of broken down houses. Have you ever heard of Broken Windows Theory?

It's not just that, too; keeping people spread out means you have to waste a lot of money on police/fire protection, buses, streetlights (oh wait, those are being privatized), etc. that you wouldn't if people were actually at a reasonable density for an inner city.

What does tearing down homes have to do with density?

[ilikeverin]

The point of tearing them down isn’t just to remove an eyesore. Abandoned houses breed crime by providing an ideal location for squatters, junkies, drug deals, etc. There have been studies that have shown crime rates are affected by the presence of broken down houses. Have you ever heard of Broken Windows Theory?

It's not just that, too; keeping people spread out means you have to waste a lot of money on police/fire protection, buses, streetlights (oh wait, those are being privatized), etc. that you wouldn't if people were actually at a reasonable density for an inner city.

What does tearing down homes have to do with density?

Because you can convert the land that the abandoned homes are sitting on to something that requires less patrolling and less fire protection; not to mention there are always the one or two holdouts on each street who insist on staying (probably because they can't find anything better, given that Detroit is, well, Detroit) and therefore need all those services.

[Wonkish1]

The point of tearing them down isn’t just to remove an eyesore. Abandoned houses breed crime by providing an ideal location for squatters, junkies, drug deals, etc. There have been studies that have shown crime rates are affected by the presence of broken down houses. Have you ever heard of Broken Windows Theory?

It's not just that, too; keeping people spread out means you have to waste a lot of money on police/fire protection, buses, streetlights (oh wait, those are being privatized), etc. that you wouldn't if people were actually at a reasonable density for an inner city.

What does tearing down homes have to do with density?

Because you can convert the land that the abandoned homes are sitting on to something that requires less patrolling and less fire protection;
____
not to mention there are always the one or two holdouts on each street who insist on staying (probably because they can't find anything better, given that Detroit is, well, Detroit) and therefore need all those services.

That has nothing to do with density.

Exactly and you can't force them off their property. That is why bulldozing property isn't going to affect density. It only knocks out a few homes in each neighborhood. The ones that have a non falling apart home aren't moving.

[Link]

How would I fix it:

Again.  When I've actually spoken to people that have lived in Detriot regardless of race they like the place.  Granted those people were all highly educated so I don't know what the poors think.  I would be much more intrested in people explaining to me why so many people like the place vs just repeating an uninformed stereotype.

Hell if there were large sell offs of property at around $100 a piece I would be looking at buying quite a bit. The future intrinsic value of this land is worth much more than that and if it takes 20 years to realize a 80+ multiple on my investment then so be it. The return would be worth the wait.

Houses have been selling for $100 a pop in Detriot for years.  The market resembles the pink sheets.  Plenty of low price trades but no real bargains.

I'm sure there are people who'd take a house in Detroit... people currently renting in Detroit and not looking to leave the city. Provided the costs down the line - municipal taxes, minimum repairs to keep the house from falling down - don't exceed their rent.
As, in Detroit, they probably will.

That's the real problem. 

[Wonkish1]

How would I fix it:

Again.  When I've actually spoken to people that have lived in Detriot regardless of race they like the place.  Granted those people were all highly educated so I don't know what the poors think.  I would be much more intrested in people explaining to me why so many people like the place vs just repeating an uninformed stereotype.

Hell if there were large sell offs of property at around $100 a piece I would be looking at buying quite a bit. The future intrinsic value of this land is worth much more than that and if it takes 20 years to realize a 80+ multiple on my investment then so be it. The return would be worth the wait.

Houses have been selling for $100 a pop in Detriot for years.  The market resembles the pink sheets.  Plenty of low price trades but no real bargains.

I'm sure there are people who'd take a house in Detroit... people currently renting in Detroit and not looking to leave the city. Provided the costs down the line - municipal taxes, minimum repairs to keep the house from falling down - don't exceed their rent.
As, in Detroit, they probably will.

That's the real problem. 

Maybe I should just plan on snatching up a body guard and go up there for some research then. They better have lowered the tax assessed value to the floor the actual value is these days. Because if the tax assessed value is still over $10k I'm passing on these. To much time to bleed property taxes on an investment that may only sell way down the road for a respectable price.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The point of tearing them down isn’t just to remove an eyesore. Abandoned houses breed crime by providing an ideal location for squatters, junkies, drug deals, etc. There have been studies that have shown crime rates are affected by the presence of broken down houses. Have you ever heard of Broken Windows Theory?

It's not just that, too; keeping people spread out means you have to waste a lot of money on police/fire protection, buses, streetlights (oh wait, those are being privatized), etc. that you wouldn't if people were actually at a reasonable density for an inner city.

What does tearing down homes have to do with density?

Because you can convert the land that the abandoned homes are sitting on to something that requires less patrolling and less fire protection;
____
not to mention there are always the one or two holdouts on each street who insist on staying (probably because they can't find anything better, given that Detroit is, well, Detroit) and therefore need all those services.

That has nothing to do with density.

It does, because if you have many occupied homes, you have high density.  If you have many abandoned homes and few occupied homes, you have low density.  If you have no homes, you have no density.  You might as well get rid of the problem areas until you're ready to put new things there.

[Wonkish1]

It does, because if you have many occupied homes, you have high density.  If you have many abandoned homes and few occupied homes, you have low density.  If you have no homes, you have no density.  You might as well get rid of the problem areas until you're ready to put new things there.

Density is the quantity of people within a particular space. So for example density is the number of people in 1 square mile.

If you bulldoze the homes that are unoccupied and the city has taken over because of failure to pay property taxes it doesn't affect the people living in the other homes in the neighborhood. All you get is large spaces between occupied homes.

The government can't take over owned property to bulldoze it and not do anything with it. So bulldozing this lot or that lot or that lot isn't going to affect density at all.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No, but if you have no abandoned homes, you have nowhere for criminals to hide out.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Plus, then you have less arsons to worry about.

[Wonkish1]

No, but if you have no abandoned homes, you have nowhere for criminals to hide out.

I'll admit that less bad homes *may* make it easier for law enforcement. That is the only reasonable argument I've come across so far as to why houses should be bulldozed.

But the notion that there wont still be a lot of places to engage in criminal activity after a lot of bulldozing is I think a very dubious one.

[Wonkish1]

Plus, then you have less arsons to worry about.

I doubt you can really make that much of an argument on the fire issue.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

There's a lot of arson in Detroit.  It's down from what it used to be, but especially on Devil's Night, things would be a lot easier for officials and volunteers if there were less empty houses to have to worry about.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Inks, have you ever heard of any house shows in Detroit?

[Wonkish1]

There's a lot of arson in Detroit.  It's down from what it used to be, but especially on Devil's Night, things would be a lot easier for officials and volunteers if there were less empty houses to have to worry about.

Hmm...Interesting.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This article has the statistics from 2009, and even notes that "Three men squatting inside a vacant house where a fire was reported were arrested":

http://dailytribune.com/articles/2009/11/03/news/doc4aef43ca44335834433376.txt