we actually might be witnessing the death of socialism!

[Wonkish1]

I'm not really sure I should take your post serious,because it's either the purest form of sarcasm I have ever seen, or a rather ignorant post. So I apologise for taking it serious if it was sarcasm.

It emerged on another thread that Wonkish had not heard of Willy Brandt before. I'll let that sink in for a moment...

I said that I had heard of him, but couldn't remember which of numerous leaders he was. When you tend to read about other countries political history sometimes the names get melded together and you can't identify who's who after a while. You have to admit though the average American has no clue about European political history at all. I'm much better than the vast majority of Americans on this front.

[Gustaf]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

[Wonkish1]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

Yeah I know right. The notion that much of the European right(as opposed to the US right) has an ideology left is kind of hilarious.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You have to admit though the average American has no clue about European political history at all. I'm much better than the vast majority of Americans on this front.

That may be so, but then the average American does not hold forth as an authority on the issue...

[Wonkish1]

You have to admit though the average American has no clue about European political history at all. I'm much better than the vast majority of Americans on this front.

That may be so, but then the average American does not hold forth as an authority on the issue...

Well I'm an authority on the current economic situation of Europe. I'm fairly good on the current political situation in Europe. I'm probably decent on issues of European political history. No where did I ever say that I was an authority on European political history. You inferred that on to me because of the fact that I've taken authority status on other issues.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

Yeah I know right. The notion that much of the European right(as opposed to the US right) has an ideology left is kind of hilarious.

That's because the US right has nothing but ideology.


As usual this thread is a collective circle-j**k for the right who think this crisis validates everything everything they ever believed... when in many ways this can be traced back to the unrestricted and unregulated capitalism they think is the answer to all the world's problems... well if you include jmfcst... the Bible as well...

[Beet]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

What was the 'ideology' of the European Right? Monarchism? What about the left throwing out communism?

[ingemann]

I'm not really sure I should take your post serious,because it's either the purest form of sarcasm I have ever seen, or a rather ignorant post. So I apologise for taking it serious if it was sarcasm.

It emerged on another thread that Wonkish had not heard of Willy Brandt before. I'll let that sink in for a moment...

I must say I'm impressed

I said that I had heard of him, but couldn't remember which of numerous leaders he was. When you tend to read about other countries political history sometimes the names get melded together and you can't identify who's who after a while. You have to admit though the average American has no clue about European political history at all. I'm much better than the vast majority of Americans on this front.

What would say to a poster who claimed to be expert on the Republican party, who didn't know who Ronald Reagan were? Willy Brandt are maybe the most well known European Social Democrat after the war. I suggest if you want to pretend to be expert on socialism or the Left, that you use wikipedia to read about people whose name is mentioned in the discussion, it won't make you a expert, but it will make you look less ridiculous.

[ingemann]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

As most left parties has dropped rather important ideological part of their party program; like nationalisation of industry and a democratic socialist revolution, the left have dropped these ideas decades ago. While the right on the other hand run keep their main beliefs like privatisation of everything and tax cuts. I have a hard time agreing with you. In fact the right in most European countries have grown even more ideological.

[Wonkish1]

That's because the US right has nothing but ideology.


As usual this thread is a collective circle-j**k for the right who think this crisis validates everything everything they ever believed... when in many ways this can be traced back to the unrestricted and unregulated capitalism they think is the answer to all the world's problems... well if you include jmfcst... the Bible as well...

That isn't true at all! To the extent that social issues still dominate a large part of the right its true that ideology plays a big part, but the notion that the US right is completely driven by ideology is untrue and a smear.

And putting aside the causes of the financial crisis(which I could very easily point to the Fed as the primary culprit and I'm a much more of an authority on the subject than anybody here), but do you think that we have somehow gotten past recessions? Do you think you can just regulate them away? So these governments spending like great times are going to be forever is stupid and the private sector has absolutely no blame in that. Furthermore, its these countries that are the new group that are going to put the world back into recession and these politicians are acting just like a Lehman CEO trying to hold it together and are too egotistical to read the tea leaves and do what is necessary.

Excessive leverage/debt in both the private sector and the public sector isn't right and you deserve to have your company or country go through cuts, fire sales, and/or painful debt restructurings when your pie in the sky predictions no longer hold up.

These countries made promises they couldn't keep pure and simple. They then financed those promises with excessive debt for years and years and now they are paying the price. And to the extent you defend a country or an ideology that thinks its perfectly fine to lever up to provide welfare benefits they can't sustain than you're no different than someone defending a I-Bank CEO who thinks its a bright idea to lever up 40 to 1 or a GSE CEO who thinks its okay to lever up 90 to 1 so that they make all kinds of money 'helping people' get homes they can't afford!

Circle jerk my @$$! Some people just wont realize that this party is ending and that includes both wall street and debt ridden socialist European countries.

[Wonkish1]

What would say to a poster who claimed to be expert on the Republican party, who didn't know who Ronald Reagan were? Willy Brandt are maybe the most well known European Social Democrat after the war. I suggest if you want to pretend to be expert on socialism or the Left, that you use wikipedia to read about people whose name is mentioned in the discussion, it won't make you a expert, but it will make you look less ridiculous.

Where did I say that I was an expert on European socialist parties? I did say that I knew a decent chunk about recent European political history(which I do), but that doesn't make me an expert.

And I believe in representing what I know when someone posts to me. I obviously could very easily wikipedia everything and faint knowledge in a bunch of subjects, but that would be dishonest. I respond first off of what I know already and then I may google something.

[Gustaf]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

What was the 'ideology' of the European Right? Monarchism? What about the left throwing out communism?

The mainstream left was never Communist. The split between commies and social democrats occurred before democratic elections were held in most countries.

I was being a bit hyperbolic, but the European right lost many of its major battles (including monarchy in many places, but more importantly stuff like the welfare state and so on). They have tended to adapt and go pragmatic.

The European left is still having a bit of trouble with that. Too much idealism still floating around.

[opebo]

Well I'm an authority on the current economic situation of Europe. I'm fairly good on the current political situation in Europe. I'm probably decent on issues of European political history. No where did I ever say that I was an authority on European political history. You inferred that on to me because of the fact that I've taken authority status on other issues.

You have a lot of confidence anyway, but that's about it.

[Phony Moderate]

This board is a parody of itself. 

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

There you go again, being serious and reasonable...

[Gustaf]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

There you go again, being serious and reasonable...

Are you being sarcastic? Or giving me the blind hen benefit?

[All Along The Watchtower]

That's because the US right has nothing but ideology.


As usual this thread is a collective circle-j**k for the right who think this crisis validates everything everything they ever believed... when in many ways this can be traced back to the unrestricted and unregulated capitalism they think is the answer to all the world's problems... well if you include jmfcst... the Bible as well...

And putting aside the causes of the financial crisis(which I could very easily point to the Fed as the primary culprit and I'm a much more of an authority on the subject than anybody here)

No, you're really not.

[Insula Dei]

lol wonkish1, just lol.

Also, Am I alone in being disappointed we have threads about this but not about the concentrated attack on the welfare state we're currently witnessing?

[All Along The Watchtower]

lol wonkish1, just lol.

Also, Am I alone in being disappointed we have threads about this but not about the concentrated attack on the welfare state we're currently witnessing?

teh well-fair stad iz bad.

[Wonkish1]

That's because the US right has nothing but ideology.


As usual this thread is a collective circle-j**k for the right who think this crisis validates everything everything they ever believed... when in many ways this can be traced back to the unrestricted and unregulated capitalism they think is the answer to all the world's problems... well if you include jmfcst... the Bible as well...

And putting aside the causes of the financial crisis(which I could very easily point to the Fed as the primary culprit and I'm a much more of an authority on the subject than anybody here)

No, you're really not.

Really I'm not an authority on capital markets?

[Wonkish1]

lol wonkish1, just lol.

Also, Am I alone in being disappointed we have threads about this but not about the concentrated attack on the welfare state we're currently witnessing?

There is a difference between being supportive of a welfare state and being supportive of a to large of a welfare state of which your country can't afford and is instead financing via increasing amounts of debt.

Apparently you want to defend the latter and assume that wealth is infinite.

[opebo]

There is a difference between being supportive of a welfare state and being supportive of a to large of a welfare state of which your country can't afford and is instead financing via increasing amounts of debt.

Under-taxation.

[Wonkish1]

There is a difference between being supportive of a welfare state and being supportive of a to large of a welfare state of which your country can't afford and is instead financing via increasing amounts of debt.

Under-taxation.

You think that raising taxes much beyond ~50% marginal tax rates, 20% VATs, huge gas taxes, 30% corporate taxes, plus property taxes, etc.(and that is just federal) is going to yield much more revenue? If you believe that your crazy. Even most of the Dems on this site admit there is a point where any marginal increase in tax rates starts to be not worth it any more and I think its pretty safe to say that many European countries have hit that limit.



Look since I don't live in Europe they can do what they want, but for God sakes is it really to much to ask for that people stop believing certain government benefit promises that are obviously unsustainable? Have your welfare state, but make sure everything in there you can afford?

I'll separate my views on a lot of welfare here and just focus on sustainable welfare spending and just focusing on that the Europeans have been beyond insane. They aren't even good Keynesians(they are worse than that) at least Keynesianism believes in cutting spending and posting huge budget surpluses in the good years, but do the Europeans do that? Hell no, they have a good economy they spend more and post deficits, they have a bad economy well you can't have people suffering now can we? So they spend some more. Its just stupid. These guys are idiots! They aren't just socialists, social democrats, Labour, etc. they are idiots!

[Filuwaúrdjan]

But at least they know who Franz Kafka was.

[Wonkish1]

But at least they know who Franz Kafka was.

I hope that consoles the average European when they're screwed over because their country just defaulted. That will certainly make not having an income all better.