Why do more liberal churches tend to be the most ritual-driven and traditional?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 02:32:24 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: World politics is up Schmitt creek)
  Why do more liberal churches tend to be the most ritual-driven and traditional?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3
Author Topic: Why do more liberal churches tend to be the most ritual-driven and traditional?  (Read 3564 times)
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,714
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: December 02, 2011, 12:13:32 PM »

I've always find it kind of ironic, and rather frustrating that the most progressive churches that are the ones constantly condemned as heretics by the fundies also tend to be really traditional, full of a lot of mechanical rituals, won't play music past the 19th century and people would think you're crazy if you so much as put your hands in the air. Of course these are also the ones where people are more likely to dress up as well (though at least I'm sure if I went they wouldn't deny me entry or throw me out for wearing a T-shirt and jeans like might happen at some Southern Baptist or rural Pentecostal church.) Someone giving a pro-gay marriage sermon is far more likely to be wearing one of those pastoral robes than jeans. It seems that if anything this should be a very conservative attitude. And most of the churches that aren't "conservative" in that way at all still tend to be very fundie and conservative otherwise. Most new evangelical churches don't care how you dress either, at least outside the south.

What's frustrating is that while there are unsurprisingly still plenty of churches that are "conservative" in both areas including entirety of the Catholic Church, very casual, unritualistic and charismatic liberal churches are extremely rare and the "generally progressive but neutral on gay marriage and still regarded by some people here as insane holy rollers" one I'm going to now is the closest one I've found in those regards. It all strikes me as very ironic. Anyone have any ideas as to why?
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,609
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2011, 12:43:57 PM »

How is it ironic? Most people's politics (and most priest's theology!) aren't driven by their dress sense.
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 12:44:47 PM »

This phenomenon stretches back at least to the 1920s, as noted by Mencken in The American Mercury:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 12:49:13 PM »

Someone giving a pro-gay marriage sermon is far more likely to be wearing one of those pastoral robes than jeans...It all strikes me as very ironic. Anyone have any ideas as to why?

because in order to buy into a pro-gay marriage sermon, you have to have your head up your butt and be following the teachings of men instead of the teachings of the bible...therefore, the pro-gay message is more likely to be found in ritual-driven churches.  duh!

anyone serious about not playing games with scripture isn't going to accept homosexuality.  because, as the scriptural debates over the last 10 years on this forum have shown, you have to be a nearly-complete*** scriptural hack to believe homosexuality meshes with the bible.

***unlike a total complete scriptural hack like you
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 12:50:40 PM »

***unlike a total complete scriptural hack like you

I'm glad you chimed in. Now I get to use another favorite Mencken quote of mine:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,609
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 12:53:09 PM »

How is it ironic? Most people's politics (and most priest's theology!) aren't driven by their dress sense.

Addendum: Happy Clappy churches are absolutely and utterly ritual-driven, almost to the extent that really OTT forms of High Church Anglo-Catholic churches can be (and they're more Catholic than the Catholics). It's just that their rituals are new.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 12:54:40 PM »

***unlike a total complete scriptural hack like you

I'm glad you chimed in. Now I get to use another favorite Mencken quote of mine:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

if you're dissin faith, then you're probably in the wrong thread, if not the wrong board...but, if you're wanting to show that homosexuality meshes with scripture, then please enlighten this thread with your vast scriptural knowledge.
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 12:55:26 PM »

***unlike a total complete scriptural hack like you

I'm glad you chimed in. Now I get to use another favorite Mencken quote of mine:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

if you're dissin faith, then you're probably in the wrong thread, if not the wrong board...but, if you're wanting to show that homosexuality meshes with scripture, then please enlighten the this thread with your vast scriptural knowledge.

I don't care about your Scripture. I was simply posting to show that Mencken was right and ought to be read even today - religiously.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 12:56:05 PM »

How is it ironic? Most people's politics (and most priest's theology!) aren't driven by their dress sense.

Addendum: Happy Clappy churches are absolutely and utterly ritual-driven, almost to the extent that really OTT forms of High Church Anglo-Catholic churches can be (and they're more Catholic than the Catholics). It's just that their rituals are new.

what is an example of a happy clappy church?
Logged
The Mikado
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,678


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 12:56:07 PM »

Judaism seems to work the opposite way...Reform congregations don't care if you're covering your head or wearing a tallit and are far more likely to feature musical accompaniment by some hippie guitarist, inserts into the liturgy altering all the prayers to be gender-neutral, and finishing by setting Adon Olam to some sixties protest anthem.  Which is a shame, because the awe-inspiring "traditional" early nineteenth century Chasidic arrangements of Hebrew prayers are pretty much universally better than Debbie Friedman folk-inspired nonsense.
Logged
The Mikado
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,678


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2011, 12:58:05 PM »

...Oops.  I didn't realize that Debbie Friedman recently passed away.  Sorry for calling your music "folk-inspired nonsense" and complaining that its influence has destroyed the beauty of Hebrew prayer!
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2011, 12:58:44 PM »


obviously, I'm not shocked that you have nothing to add to this thread, whose subject is the difference between Christian congregations.

Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2011, 12:59:50 PM »


obviously, I'm not shocked that you have nothing to add to this thread, whose subject is the difference between Christian congregations.



But I did. I posted evidence that this phenomenon (the 'Catholicization' of mainline groups) has been on-going since, at least, 1926, and was noticeable to someone as far removed from the milieu as Mencken. Which is a far more valuable contribution than your post, might I add.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2011, 01:48:39 PM »

But I did. I posted evidence that this phenomenon (the 'Catholicization' of mainline groups) has been on-going since, at least, 1926, and was noticeable to someone as far removed from the milieu as Mencken. Which is a far more valuable contribution than your post, might I add.

[jmfcst finally reads Stardust's original post]

my apologies...but, perhaps your answer was a tad too high brow for me...  Wink

in any case, Menchen seems to only be pointing out that departure from the scripture leads to liberalism:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

which is the exact same thing I said:

because in order to buy into a pro-gay marriage sermon, you have to have your head up your butt and be following the teachings of men instead of the teachings of the bible...therefore, the pro-gay message is more likely to be found in ritual-driven churches.  duh!

anyone serious about not playing games with scripture isn't going to accept homosexuality.  because, as the scriptural debates over the last 10 years on this forum have shown, you have to be a nearly-complete scriptural hack to believe homosexuality meshes with the bible.
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2011, 01:52:15 PM »

in any case, Menchen seems to only be pointing out that departure from the scripture leads to liberalism:

Mencken, my man. Mencken.

And yeah, sola scriptura is a minority position among a vast majority of Christians, be they liberal High Churchers or arch-conservative Catholic Traditionalists.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 01:57:52 PM »

in any case, Menchen seems to only be pointing out that departure from the scripture leads to liberalism:

Mencken, my man. Mencken.

whatever, but you have to admit the guy's snobbery is very thick
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2011, 01:59:10 PM »

in any case, Menchen seems to only be pointing out that departure from the scripture leads to liberalism:

Mencken, my man. Mencken.

whatever, but you have to admit the guy's snobbery is very thick

That's part of his charm. Where the jmfcsts believe that false modesty is a virtue, I hold that true arrogance is the hallmark of an authentic man.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2011, 02:06:27 PM »

That's part of his charm. Where the jmfcsts believe that false modesty is a virtue, I hold that true arrogance is the hallmark of an authentic man.

doubt many posters here would consider me modest enough to even have a shot at being falsely modest.   Tongue

though I have my flaws with arrogance, I do believe my theology and doctrine are modest (not extreme)...I mean, after all, reading the bible and concluding homosexuality is OK is extremely extreme given all the evidence within scripture against it.
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2011, 02:09:24 PM »

That's part of his charm. Where the jmfcsts believe that false modesty is a virtue, I hold that true arrogance is the hallmark of an authentic man.

doubt many posters here would consider me modest enough to even have a shot at being falsely modest.   Tongue

though I have my flaws with arrogance, I do believe my theology and doctrine are modest (not extreme)...I mean, after all, reading the bible and concluding homosexuality is OK is extremely extreme given all the evidence within scripture against it.

It's not your arrogance you have a problem with. It's the arrogance of everyone else, particularly out-of-touch liberals. I'd have been more inclined to vote Obama had he made more "bitter" comments.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2011, 02:14:50 PM »

It's not your arrogance you have a problem with. It's the arrogance of everyone else, particularly out-of-touch liberals.

no, rather I have a problem with their lack of logic - if you're going to be a Christian, how in the heck does one think it is logically consistent to pick and choose which statements from the NT you want to ignore and which ones you want to try to follow?

I understand the temptation to do so, but to me, buying into it goes against all logic and common sense
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2011, 02:17:30 PM »
« Edited: December 02, 2011, 02:19:30 PM by Stardust »

It's not your arrogance you have a problem with. It's the arrogance of everyone else, particularly out-of-touch liberals.

no, rather I have a problem with their lack of logic - if you're going to be a Christian, how in the heck does one think it is logically consistent to pick and choose which statements from the NT you want to ignore and which ones you want to try to follow?

You've picked and chose yourself to interpret the Bible literally. Sola scriptura is pretty well unjustifiable Biblically.

Now, I know that you're going to want to quote Revelation 22:18 at me, and you may do so to your heart's content.

(Of course, I think we'd find common ground if we agreed that we both hate liberal Christians. I don't actually have a dog in this hunt, as I reject 'Scripture' altogether.)
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2011, 02:33:07 PM »

You've picked and chose yourself to interpret the Bible literally.

did Jesus and the Apostles interpret scripture literally?

---

Sola scriptura is pretty well unjustifiable Biblically.

really, how so?
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2011, 02:33:39 PM »

You've picked and chose yourself to interpret the Bible literally. Sola scriptura is pretty well unjustifiable Biblically.

really, how so?

Because it's literally not in the Bible.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,212
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2011, 02:34:28 PM »

dude, you're too quick, I revised my post.
Logged
Stardust
Rookie
**
Posts: 205
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2011, 02:36:01 PM »

did Jesus and the Apostles interpret scripture literally?

That's an extremely vague question, considering none of them left behind any hint of an organized epistemology.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.041 seconds with 13 queries.