People clinging to guns...

[Beet]

This is why I'm unenthusiastic about higher gun sales...



The states with more guns / less restrictive gun laws clearly have more firearm deaths. And yeah, there are real studies that corroborate the intuitive message that you get from the map.

I'm not for "gun control". The phrase sounds really inappropriate... like you're trying to control who has guns. I wouldn't say that's really accurate. I'm not for controlling guns for their own sake. I also don't think there's anything wrong with owning guns, even a lot of guns, or being a gun enthusiast. I also get what Jacobtm is saying. What I don't like is the message that guns are a path to personal safety and that, the more guns there are, the more personally safe we are collectively, or individually. The opposite is true. Guns should be seen like driving-- a valid exercise, but one that has a health cost. Society must balance the right to enjoy guns with the safety benefits of minimizing gun ownership, and other regulations which may make owning guns safer to begin with.

[dead0man]

I pretty much agree.  I'm very pro-gun (obviously), but I don't own a gun.  Why?  No need mainly.  Cost is important too, but having children in the house is a very important factor as well.  You've got to weigh the risks and rewards and right now in my life the possible risks of owning a gun out weigh the possible rewards of owning a gun.

But that should be MY choice to make.  Just like it should my choice to mainline heroin, rent a willing human for sexual gratification or die with the aid of a medical professional.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

People are stupid. So are most forms of gun control.

[CARLHAYDEN]

This is really depressing. If you have a gun, you are more likely to get shot. During an assault, gun owners are four times as likely to get shot. And even if you don't get shot, in many self-defense situations, non-lethal force is more appropriate than pulling a gun. All the messages telling women that having a gun is the only way to be safe is potentially creating more dangers, IMO.

Wrong!

You really should stop believing (much less posting) such drivel.

[Joe Republic]

This is really depressing. If you have a gun, you are more likely to get shot. During an assault, gun owners are four times as likely to get shot. And even if you don't get shot, in many self-defense situations, non-lethal force is more appropriate than pulling a gun. All the messages telling women that having a gun is the only way to be safe is potentially creating more dangers, IMO.

Wrong!

Excellent counterpoint.  Very thought-provoking.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Do you think, maybe, that the kind of people that carry guns...I don't know, might have a good reason sometimes?  And that reason is why they are more likely to be shot than the having a gun part is?  Like the guy working at the pawn shop in the shady part of town taking the days cash income to the bank.  Or the jewlrey store owner.  Or the hundreds and hundreds of other situations.  I'm not saying it makes up all of the "four times more likely to get shot" part, but I bet it goes a long way to that end.

And I'm pretty sure no sane person has ever said that a woman having a gun is the ONLY way to be safe.

That would actually make for a very interesting study.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Is someone here objecting to my planned stockpile of guns when I'm older?

[CARLHAYDEN]

This is why I'm unenthusiastic about higher gun sales...



The states with more guns / less restrictive gun laws clearly have more firearm deaths. And yeah, there are real studies that corroborate the intuitive message that you get from the map.

I'm not for "gun control". The phrase sounds really inappropriate... like you're trying to control who has guns. I wouldn't say that's really accurate. I'm not for controlling guns for their own sake. I also don't think there's anything wrong with owning guns, even a lot of guns, or being a gun enthusiast. I also get what Jacobtm is saying. What I don't like is the message that guns are a path to personal safety and that, the more guns there are, the more personally safe we are collectively, or individually. The opposite is true. Guns should be seen like driving-- a valid exercise, but one that has a health cost. Society must balance the right to enjoy guns with the safety benefits of minimizing gun ownership, and other regulations which may make owning guns safer to begin with.

Beet,

I have tracked back your source, and, the data is highly misleading.

First, the majority of the deaths cited where firearms were involved were suicides.  Now, I would not be surprised for you to argue that but for the availability of firearms the suicide rate would be lower.  The problem is that the suicide rate is much lower in the United States than in many other countries with restrictive firearms laws.  

Second, the number/rate of homicides has been dropping for about three decades.  Homicides are not statistically related to rate of firearm possession or restrictive laws (D.C. has one of the lowest rates of ownership/most restrictive laws whereas Vermont allows concealed carry without a permit).

Third, the number of deaths by accidental discharge is both small and has been decreasing for decades due in part to improved firearm design and safety programs such as Eddie Eagle.

Fourth, we do not know how many of the deaths resulting from "legal intervention" involved firearms, but, even if they all did (which we know is untrue), that would amount to a mere 412

[Link]

Of course, the most important reason for owning guns isn't defense from common criminals, but maintaining ultimate power in the hands of the citizens.

So you have this...



And the government has this...



And now you think you have the "ultimate power?"

Let me know when you're starting the revolution.  I want to get a good seat for the show.

[RI]

I've never understood the idea that owning a gun is somehow a safeguard against some whimsically hypothetical tyrannical government. It's like stockpiling for a zombie apocalypse; it isn't going to happen, but if it did you'd be screwed anyway. There are certainly legitimate reasons to own a gun, but that doesn't seem like one of them.

[opebo]

Is someone here objecting to my planned stockpile of guns when I'm older?

Well you're probably also planning to have sex when you're older, and we're not holding our breath on that one either.

[Free Palestine]

I've never understood the idea that owning a gun is somehow a safeguard against some whimsically hypothetical tyrannical government. It's like stockpiling for a zombie apocalypse; it isn't going to happen, but if it did you'd be screwed anyway. There are certainly legitimate reasons to own a gun, but that doesn't seem like one of them.

1) We can't exactly see the future, when it comes to these things.

2) Insurgencies have defeated, or at least stood up pretty well against, technologically superior armies.

3) Better to die free than to die a slave.

[RI]

Living in fear of some remotely possible future, based on irrational expectations, is no way to live your life. Being afraid and paranoid all the time will only make you miserable, poor, and probably dead faster.

[Free Palestine]

Living in fear of some remotely possible future, based on irrational expectations, is no way to live your life. Being afraid and paranoid all the time will only make you miserable, poor, and probably dead faster.

There's a difference between being paranoid and stricken with fear, and not being naive.

[fezzyfestoon]

The national fetish with guns is embarrassing and bizarre. The whole conversation on it is so contrived, there's no point in attempting to base it in fact. In my experience there seems to be an inverse relationship between intelligence and enthusiasm for guns. It just makes no sense and the devotion to it has nothing to do with safety or defense or whatever. I don't know why we even discuss that.

[dead0man]

In my experience there seems to be an inverse relationship between intelligence and enthusiasm for guns gun control.

I don't normally do this becasue it's wrong, but it seems to be convention here and I couldn't pass this one up....so

FTFY

[TJ in Oregon]

My brother has a handgun because he lives in inner-city Toledo. He's tired of having his house broken into and he's tired of getting mugged. Last year some jerk who pretended to beat up a girl to get him to come over and say something tricked him into a fight. There were other accomplices who came and outnumbered my poor brother pretty badly. He ended up in the hospital with a broken jaw. He couldn't eat solids for a weeks.

After that crap, he decided to get a handgun. Quite frankly, I find it hard to blame him. Holding gun scares me. It doesn't scare him. I think he ought to be allowed to own a gun to protect himself, not so much in the event of some crazy anti-government revolution, but so that he can better defend himself against whoever he meets on the streets.

[/anecdote]

[Marokai Backbeat]

My brother has a handgun because he lives in inner-city Toledo. He's tired of having his house broken into and he's tired of getting mugged. Last year some jerk who pretended to beat up a girl to get him to come over and say something tricked him into a fight. There were other accomplices who came and outnumbered my poor brother pretty badly. He ended up in the hospital with a broken jaw. He couldn't eat solids for a weeks.

After that crap, he decided to get a handgun. Quite frankly, I find it hard to blame him. Holding gun scares me. It doesn't scare him. I think he ought to be allowed to own a gun to protect himself, not so much in the event of some crazy anti-government revolution, but so that he can better defend himself against whoever he meets on the streets.

[/anecdote]

Even under my wildest of gun control fantasies, I'd never want to restrict gun ownership to the level that a normal guy could keep one for his safety in a situation like that. The problem with this conversation is the silly extremes that so many people take on it, and honestly, most of the people holding an extreme position are not on my side of the aisle, so to speak.

[Landslide Lyndon]

My brother has a handgun because he lives in inner-city Toledo. He's tired of having his house broken into and he's tired of getting mugged. Last year some jerk who pretended to beat up a girl to get him to come over and say something tricked him into a fight. There were other accomplices who came and outnumbered my poor brother pretty badly. He ended up in the hospital with a broken jaw. He couldn't eat solids for a weeks.

After that crap, he decided to get a handgun. Quite frankly, I find it hard to blame him. Holding gun scares me. It doesn't scare him. I think he ought to be allowed to own a gun to protect himself, not so much in the event of some crazy anti-government revolution, but so that he can better defend himself against whoever he meets on the streets.

[/anecdote]

Even under my wildest of gun control fantasies, I'd never want to restrict gun ownership to the level that a normal guy could keep one for his safety in a situation like that. The problem with this conversation is the silly extremes that so many people take on it, and honestly, most of the people holding an extreme position are not on my side of the aisle, so to speak.

Indeed. Not allowing mentally unbalanced people to own guns seems like a no brainer, but if anybody tried to pass a law about that the usual suspects will start screaming again about Government Tyranny and Socialism.

[dead0man]

link

Well actually there is a law about it (has been since 1968, strengthed after the VaTech shooting), it's just not being used very well as many states and federal agencies are lazy (or other silly excuses like privacy) about sending in their lists of crazy people.

Consider your ignorance fought.

[Landslide Lyndon]

link

Well actually there is a law about it (has been since 1968, strengthed after the VaTech shooting), it's just not being used very well as many states and federal agencies are lazy (or other silly excuses like privacy) about sending in their lists of crazy people.

Consider your ignorance fought.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704515904576076200491395200.html

Apparently this law has so many loopholes that it has become a joke. And of course the NRA adamantly opposes closing those loopholes or else the country will be on a slippery slope that leads to Tyranny.

[dead0man]

Indeed.  It seems the only crazy people getting stopped from getting guns are, oddly, Veterans.

As a pro-gun guy, I have no probems with stopping the truly nuts from getting guns.  And the NRA often sucks...it's more of a hunters lobby than a gun lobby anyway.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Pregnant Woman With Shotgun Thwarts Burglars

December 6, 2011 5:51 PM

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/12/06/pregnant-woman-with-shotgun-thwarts-burglars/

[dead0man]

Thank Og she doesn't have realisticidealist's philosophy heh?