Greece 2012
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 08:35:13 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  International Elections (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Greece 2012
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 41 42 43 44 45 [46] 47
Author Topic: Greece 2012  (Read 221934 times)
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,684
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1125 on: June 18, 2012, 11:05:36 AM »
« edited: June 18, 2012, 01:27:16 PM by yellow brick road »

Media coverage sucks. I'll extract one paragraph from NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/world/europe/greek-elections.html?ref=world

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

False statement: ND is not the most pro-Europe party in Greece; just remember that Samaras rejected the bailout when he was in the opposition. As all the Greek right-wing ND is staunchly nationalist. It's important to remark what I put in bold letters.

The Guardian another progressive-liberal media usually depicts Syriza as "far-left" and "anti-bailout" which is not correct. It´s more accurate if you say "anti-memorandum", i.e., opposed to the harsh austerity measures attached to the bailout.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/18/greek-election-coalition-government

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

If we identify Pro-Europe with Pro-Bailout, surely Evangelos Venizelos is the most europeist leader in Greece. Anyways Venizelos also believes that a renegotation is indispensable.
Logged
minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,207
India


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1126 on: June 18, 2012, 01:38:04 PM »

Sorry, that's the only thing that came to my mind after reading your posts. There's no way to argue with such mind-numbed talking points. It's like arguing with AmericanNation or CaDan.

A friendly advice - do not display such an elitist and self-righteous attitude towards people who have a different point of view. It's neither helpful on a forum nor in real life.
Well what can you do when faced with stuff like this
Schaüble...

I eagerly wait the day where some politician of another country says him than he is Germany's Finance minister and to stop putting his nose in other countries.

I'm not sure he would like if all foreign finance ministers said him what do to.

Well it's his business, considering lots of German money is at stake here. Don't like it? That's a problem caused by the EU. It's not as if Schäuble chose Greece to go bankrupt.

from somebody who didn't spend the summer of 2010 in a koma?
Logged
TheParliamentarian
TheNationalist
Rookie
**
Posts: 31
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1127 on: June 18, 2012, 03:53:51 PM »

Samaras received a mandate from the president to form a coalition, and a New Democracy source said the party expected to clinch a deal on Tuesday after Samaras met the third-placed PASOK Socialists and the small Democratic Left group.
Logged
Insula Dei
belgiansocialist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,326
Belgium


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1128 on: June 18, 2012, 04:27:57 PM »
« Edited: June 18, 2012, 04:30:17 PM by Tussen Droom en Daad »

Those of you who think German tax payers should pay for the rest of Europe without complaining or demanding anything in return...what principle is that based on?

If you've wasted all your money you can't really expect to get more with no questions asked.

Three men are in a boat. One man falls asleep one night and the boat hits a rock. The boat now has a hole in it. One of the other men has a bucket. He asks the third man: 'Say, why do you want me to empty the boat? This is not my fault, and besides I once hurt my back rather badly while working and ever since I've had an irrational fear of physical exercise. I don't want us emptying the boat together eithe, since I don't belief in groups. Rather I feel we should make our friend drink all this water. He broke the boat; it's only right he should suffer.'

One day later the first man dies an agonizing death due to all the salty water he was made to drink. The very next day both other men drown.

Not very inspired as an analogy, I know.
Logged
All Along The Watchtower
Progressive Realist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,417
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1129 on: June 18, 2012, 04:51:43 PM »

President Obama has praised the results in Greece:



Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/18/barack-obama-greek-elections-positive?newsfeed=true
Logged
You kip if you want to...
change08
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,940
United Kingdom
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1130 on: June 18, 2012, 04:58:16 PM »

Samaras received a mandate from the president to form a coalition, and a New Democracy source said the party expected to clinch a deal on Tuesday after Samaras met the third-placed PASOK Socialists and the small Democratic Left group.


Interesting that DIMAR's even considering it...
Logged
Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
JOHN91043353
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,569
Sweden


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1131 on: June 18, 2012, 07:46:50 PM »


... really you couldn't think of a better analogy? Really, nothing at all?

Firstly it's not like Germany hasn't already spent billions of euros trying to save failing European economies, thereby in difference to your analogy definatley using its bucket. But emptying the boat is rather pointless if there is still a bloody HOLE in it. It's quite reasonable to demand the guy responsible for the accident to try to fix it.

I'm guessing the stupidity of sailing in the middle of dark night is representing the stupidity of the idea of the Euro.     
Logged
Iannis
Rookie
**
Posts: 222
Italy


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1132 on: June 19, 2012, 05:02:13 AM »

Believe me, I don't like to. But I felt the need to express my feelings, because my despair reaches new heights every time I realize how widespread your "views" are.

The hard reality for your kind of answering usually is the lack of good arguments and the lack of competence on the issues treated
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1133 on: June 19, 2012, 05:08:36 AM »

Anybody who has taken time to actually argue on this issue knows that I do have arguments. Whether they are good or not is left to your judgement.
Logged
politicus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 10,174
Denmark


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1134 on: June 19, 2012, 06:01:07 AM »

Election result:
 
ND 129
 
Syriza 71
 
Pasok 33
 
ANEL 20
 
XA 18
 
DIMAR 17
 
KKE 12
 

ND + Pasok = 162

Anti-austerity: 138

How long would an ND/Pasok coalition last with such a relatively narrow majority? Anyone wants to bet 10.000 Euros there is going to be a new election within 6 months?

Why is Pasok even interested in taking part in such a government
 



Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1135 on: June 19, 2012, 06:11:15 AM »

Why is Pasok even interested in taking part in such a government

They have to. I might have supported Syriza, but ND has won fair and square and Greece's interest is to have a stable government. If Dimar could be brought into it (I'm sure they don't want to, but still) it would be even better.
Logged
politicus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 10,174
Denmark


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1136 on: June 19, 2012, 06:15:00 AM »

Why is Pasok even interested in taking part in such a government

They have to. I might have supported Syriza, but ND has won fair and square and Greece's interest is to have a stable government. If Dimar could be brought into it (I'm sure they don't want to, but still) it would be even better.
You a being a bit too deterministic. A party never has to take part in a government, they can choose not to for a number of reasons - including self interest.
Logged
jaichind
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 27,151
United States


Political Matrix
E: 9.03, S: -5.39

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1137 on: June 19, 2012, 06:57:45 AM »

Looks like it will be ND-PASOK-DIMAR.  DIMAR was always on the fence on the Memorandum.  Of course after the last election ND-PASOK-DIMAR was the only viable coalition but PASOK and DIMAR said no.  Now after market chaos and Greece getting close to the brink, they finally has come to their senses.  That is the way things ought to be, when you do something stupid, the market will punish you and then you better be with the picture. 



     June 19 (Bloomberg) -- Democratic Left leader Fotis
Kouvelis said it was possible that an agreement on a Greek
coalition government could be reached in the next few hours.
     “Agreement on a policy roadmap is the definitive point to
form a government,” Kouvelis said after meeting with Pasok
leader Evangelos Venizelos in Athens today. “The process is
speeding up. It is possible that in the next few hours, or
within the day, a government can be decided.”
     He spoke in Athens in comments carried live on state-run
NET TV.
Logged
So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass!
Rockingham
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 547


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1138 on: June 19, 2012, 07:48:20 AM »

My bet is that, while PASOK will work their damned hardest to look like they're trying, they'll sabotage the negotiations subtly(or not so subtly through insistence that SYRIZA participate). The reason being that if ND fails to form a government in three days SYRIZA gets the opportunity(they'll fail), and then PASOK gets their shot.

Then theirs DIMAR. They may want a coalition government for fear of their vote share falling if a third election is held... but they'd probably prefer that PASOK rather then ND head that government since PASOK is closer to DIMAR's platform(indeed many DIMAR members are former members of PASOK), and a PASOK led government would outrage their voters more then an ND one would.

Then it comes down to ND's decision: would they rather accept PASOK formed coalition to avoid the specter of a third election that SYRIZA might win?... or do they risk another role of the dice instead.
Logged
Niemeyerite
JulioMadrid
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,803
Spain


Political Matrix
E: -8.65, S: -9.04

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1139 on: June 19, 2012, 08:09:06 AM »

I agree with Antonio. I supported SIRYZA, but after the election, I think the best for Greece, Europe, and Spain, is a stable government led by the winner (Samaras) but supported by the centre-left. A third election would be a disaster.. And Greeks have already said for the second time in 2 months that they want ND to be the biggest party, and they've given ND-PASOK-DIMAR a majority in the Parliament twice... So, let's give an opportunity to Samaras, I won't start complaining until September Tongue
Logged
LastVoter
seatown
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,322
Thailand


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1140 on: June 19, 2012, 08:51:28 AM »

Looks like it will be ND-PASOK-DIMAR.  DIMAR was always on the fence on the Memorandum.  Of course after the last election ND-PASOK-DIMAR was the only viable coalition but PASOK and DIMAR said no.  Now after market chaos and Greece getting close to the brink, they finally has come to their senses.  That is the way things ought to be, when you do something stupid, the market will punish you and then you better be with the picture. 



     June 19 (Bloomberg) -- Democratic Left leader Fotis
Kouvelis said it was possible that an agreement on a Greek
coalition government could be reached in the next few hours.
     “Agreement on a policy roadmap is the definitive point to
form a government,” Kouvelis said after meeting with Pasok
leader Evangelos Venizelos in Athens today. “The process is
speeding up. It is possible that in the next few hours, or
within the day, a government can be decided.”
     He spoke in Athens in comments carried live on state-run
NET TV.
Stockholm syndrome. Greeks love their oppressors now.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1141 on: June 19, 2012, 09:00:07 AM »


... really you couldn't think of a better analogy? Really, nothing at all?

Firstly it's not like Germany hasn't already spent billions of euros trying to save failing European economies, thereby in difference to your analogy definatley using its bucket. But emptying the boat is rather pointless if there is still a bloody HOLE in it. It's quite reasonable to demand the guy responsible for the accident to try to fix it.

I'm guessing the stupidity of sailing in the middle of dark night is representing the stupidity of the idea of the Euro.     

Belgian's analogy would be better if it was a long voyage, the hole had been only formed over time with termites and the "Germany" character initially told the "Greek" character to pretend that no termites existed (even though they both knew they did). That would have been one improvement.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,684
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1142 on: June 19, 2012, 10:17:57 AM »

  That is the way things ought to be, when you do something stupid, the market will punish you and then you better be with the picture. 

The markets punish you even if you are an obedient pupil. See Spain.

ND-PASOK-Dimar seems to be the less worse in the present circumstances.
Logged
Dereich
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1143 on: June 19, 2012, 10:51:38 AM »

  That is the way things ought to be, when you do something stupid, the market will punish you and then you better be with the picture. 

The markets punish you even if you are an obedient pupil. See Spain.

ND-PASOK-Dimar seems to be the less worse in the present circumstances.

A KKE-XA coalition would probably be less worse then the current circumstances, at least we would have certainty and know to stay far away from Greece for a few years. And you're half right about Spain. The Spanish government is working with Europe, but the Spanish regions are unobidient children dragging the whole country into uncertainty and debt. If the Spanish government didn't have them to deal with I have no doubt Spain wouldn't be the main country on the market's radar.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,684
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1144 on: June 19, 2012, 11:09:52 AM »
« Edited: June 21, 2012, 12:38:11 PM by yellow brick road »

Are you talking seriously, Dereich? Do you want Greece expelled and with this odd XA-KKE coalition in office? There is too much to say about Spanish regions (or "autonomies") but your statement is essentially false. They are a part of the problem, of course, but they have only a little share. The big mess is in the banks and in the private debt, all consequencies of the real estate bubble.
Logged
Dereich
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1145 on: June 19, 2012, 01:03:57 PM »

Are you talking seriously, Dereich? Do you want Greece expelled and with this odd XA-KKE coalition in office? There is too much to say about Spanish regions (or "autonomies") but your statement is essentially false. They are a part of the problem, of course, but they have only a little share. The big mess is in the banks and in the private debt, all consecuencies of the real estate bubble.

Of course not. But the markets seem to have a strange fixation on "uncertainty". I'd go so far as to say that uncertainty is the main driver of the current crisis. Not so that, that is, that there is a need to force markets to not worry or something. European governments can and should deal with the structual issues the plague growth. But after seeing how markets have reacted as of late I'd guess that the only thing that could make them certain of anything would be a distaterous result, like a KKE-XA coalition. And you have to admit that a KKE-XA coalition would be the most interesting political spectacle in Europe since Berlisconi left.

As for Spain, I should have been more clear. The regions are a problem in the deficit battles, not in the financial troubles. I sort of look at it as two different but interconnected malaises: one having to do with the financial system, the other a confidence problem.  I've probably also been overestimating the impact of the regions on the deficit/uncertainty thing because I've been hearing a lot about it lately from a Catalan friend of mine.

Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,684
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1146 on: June 19, 2012, 01:44:43 PM »
« Edited: June 19, 2012, 01:51:40 PM by yellow brick road »

As for Spain, I should have been more clear. The regions are a problem in the deficit battles, not in the financial troubles. I sort of look at it as two different but interconnected malaises: one having to do with the financial system, the other a confidence problem.  I've probably also been overestimating the impact of the regions on the deficit/uncertainty thing because I've been hearing a lot about it lately from a Catalan friend of mine.

The biggest share of the deficit is in the Spanish state not in the regions. Spain has still a relatively low deficit if you comapare it with other countries in Europe. Private debt is even bigger than public deficit. In Spain the debate about the budget cuts in the regions is polluted. The problem is real but there has been a lot of demagogy because of the battle between nationalism (central Spain vs. peripheric regions) and the political battles between PP and PSOE. Esperanza Aguirre, the conservative PM of Madrid region, showed off her economic management as an example of virtue. Now we know that Madrid has a deficit wich was unrevealed, just like in Greece but in a much lower scale, of course.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

It would be interesting if you see the bullfight behind the barrier, as we say in Spain. Berlusconi and these Greek Nazis aren't funny actually.
Logged
Dereich
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1147 on: June 19, 2012, 02:22:25 PM »
« Edited: June 20, 2012, 08:21:15 AM by Dereich »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

It would be interesting if you see the bullfight behind the barrier, as we say in Spain. Berlusconi and these Greek Nazis aren't funny actually.

Its possible to laugh at things going on across the Atlantic that I'm sure are horrifying to someone closer. Just look at that incident with the XA member attacking that KKE woman on televison. I'm sure to a Greek that was terrible and a national shame; that didn't make it unfunny here.  Similary, I'm sure most Americans wouldn't think the concept of a Donald Trump presidency would be very funny, but Europeans would probably think its hilarious. Berlisconi,  Greece, and other European farces could directly affect you and your country's livelyhoods, its not unresonable that you view them as more serious issues then I do.

Oh and as for Spain; now I know. Thanks for the corrections.
Logged
You kip if you want to...
change08
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,940
United Kingdom
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1148 on: June 20, 2012, 07:19:48 AM »

Samaras to be sworn in later today.

It's funny 'cos he's in over his head.
Logged
Dereich
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,892


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1149 on: June 20, 2012, 08:23:11 AM »

What's with DIMAR joining? Didn't they reject this exact coalition less then a month ago?
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 41 42 43 44 45 [46] 47  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.052 seconds with 12 queries.