Greece 2012

[Franzl]

I like numerical majority bonuses (those like the Greek one, which consists in a block of seats awarded to a party) as long as they aren't too big (16.67%, which means you need 40% for a majority, is my upper limit). That said, the Italian system sucks indeed. You could get 20% and still win 55% of the seats.

What happened to proportionality and fairly representing the intent of the voters?

[Franzl]

What happens if it becomes near enough impossible to form a government?

It isn't as though Greece is a sovereign country, so it hardly matters.

BrusselsBerlin-appointed caretaker government? 

I suspect that solution would be more productive than anything the Greek voters will produce. Not that I would directly advocate doing it so blatantly

[Franzl]

I think they mostly want to stop to be a German colony, like French are saying by rejecting Sarkozy, the CDU candidate.

Believe me - nothing in Greece or France seems to be as competent as the CDU. Which says more about the respective parties there than it does about the CDU. (Says the biased guy from Germany.)

[Franzl]

Given the high likelihood of an incredibly fractured Parliament, here's the procedure for forming a government in Greece in the absence of a Parliamentary majority:

What if XA, for some improbable reason, became the largest party?

Then Greece is f**ked.

[Franzl]

I guess the big question is whether more parties get in or not?

[Franzl]

The thought that 435 thousand of my compatriots voted the Neo-Nazis is enough to give me a depression.
 

That's truly frightening that the wonderful, peace creating Euro has allowed national socialists to enter a European parliament again.

[Franzl]

@Nathan: It's not clear to whom he was referring with his [batmacumba] comments about 'retarded votes'. I hope it is the neonazis but I can't be sure, look at attitudes the likes of Franzl have constantly displayed in threads on this issue to see this.

the Left should support the anti-austerity far right in certain strategic situations.

Tweed, you have lost me now.

the point is to break out of the grip of the international financial institutions: THE crucial plank shared by the far right and Left (Syriza, KKE insofar as it has an actual platform, and GD).  then once that is done, the vacuum is created and we can slug it out on the streets.

Do I really need to explain why this is a terrible idea?

Now I'm confused - What are you complaining about? I simply stated that I believe the Euro has caused a great deal of harm, especially evidenced by the fact that 7% of Greeks have been lured into voting for open national socialists. I find it ironic that the currency that was supposed to enhance freedom and peace in Europe has lead to consequences such as this.

Do you disagree with this?

[Franzl]

But the tones of your remarks have had all the hallmarks of smugness and a sense of superiority. At least, to me.

Well to an extent. I feel confirmed in my belief that the Euro is destined to cause trouble. I

Sense of superiority to what or who though? The Greeks? No. While I do believe they made a very immature and dangerous decision yesterday (something px would certainly agree to), bad times are known to bring out the worst in voters. The average Greek voter, I believe I read in the Frankfurt Rundschau this morning, earns 30% less than he did two years ago. While you can argue about whether they were making too much to begin with..... on a personal level, it's certainly very devestating.

[Franzl]

-Syriza very eager to attempt an anti-austerity coalition, even saying he'll allow Commie Alexa to be Prime Minister, and saying he'll accept support from ANEL. Not likely to go anywhere, of course.

KKE wants actual power like they want the plague.

Indeed. Perpetual opposition is their entire raison d'être.

[Franzl]

It's not the same thing (reserve currency status), but it's not like the U.S. is in much better financial shape than Greece. Look at the American deficit.

[Franzl]

Wait: So what is the chance that there may actually be a plausible government in the making? Or are we still convinced that there are going to be new elections?

[Franzl]

Kouvelis just said that he's not joining ND or PASOK it government.  I guess it probably was just Venizelos trying to pressure him.

He has said it so many times I've lost counting. Kouvelis isn't stupid or suicidal to carry the burden of governance while leaving the fertile opposition field to Tsipras alone.

So is it now pretty much certain that new elections will happen?

[Franzl]

So what's going on? Any government in sight?

[Franzl]

My sympathies, Px.

[Franzl]

Syriza must win this, then the new government must go tell Merkel that either they get the money they need or the whole eurozone goes down.

The reports I've seen in the last several days seem to indicate that Greece leaving the Eurozone wouldn't actually be the end of the world. Even if the extreme left-wing wants it to be true.

[Franzl]

Syriza must win this, then the new government must go tell Merkel that either they get the money they need or the whole eurozone goes down.

The reports I've seen in the last several days seem to indicate that Greece leaving the Eurozone wouldn't actually be the end of the world. Even if the extreme left-wing wants it to be true.

Maybe if it's only Greece, but you know that other countries would follow suit.

Hmmm. We'll see soon enough. Do you reckon I should be exchanging my saving from € to $?

[Franzl]

Syriza must win this, then the new government must go tell Merkel that either they get the money they need or the whole eurozone goes down.

The reports I've seen in the last several days seem to indicate that Greece leaving the Eurozone wouldn't actually be the end of the world. Even if the extreme left-wing wants it to be true.

Of course. Especially if are eager to relive the experience of Ceausescu's Romania.

Think it would get that bad? I admit I don't have much insight into how bad things really are on the ground in Greece.

Either way, I do feel sorry that we all got ourselves into this mess to begin with. And I'm not pointing fingers at any one nationality here. I think everyone jumped into this focused on a grand political project without adequately considering the potential consequences.

[Franzl]

So I guess the big question is, Px: Will the voters show the maturity they failed to show in the last elections when confronted with this possibility?

[Franzl]

So I guess the big question is, Px: Will the voters show the maturity they failed to show in the last elections when confronted with this possibility?

How would voting ND show that sort of 'maturity', exactly?

It would be mature in the sense that it would keep the money flowing that Greece needs right now. I understand that people are severely hurting, and that it seems to them to be in their short term interest to stop the pain (i.e. reject austerity), but you can't realistically expect other countries to go along with giving, giving and giving without at least some sign that the people receiving the money are interested in actually solving their budget problems.

I understand the irony of being forced to vote for a party that largely contributed to the crisis in the first place, but voting for the Radical Left isn't an option if Greece desires to avoid the catastrophe Px is describing.

[Franzl]

"Some sign?" The entire political establishment has destroyed itself for the sake of "solving their budget problems."

Oh absolutely. But voting in the Radical Left would draw that intention into question and seriously suggest that they are no longer interested in saving.

You can't seriously expect countries like Germany, Austria, etc. to continue giving money away if Greece has a government that openly says it has no intention of paying the money back?

[Franzl]

Yeah, that meanie doesn't want to give me his money...guess I should hold a gun to his head. Right, Antonio?

[Franzl]

Yeah, that meanie doesn't want to give me his money...guess I should hold a gun to his head. Right, Antonio?

I guess you know that it has never been about actually giving any money, right ?

If SYRIZA wins, it was a lot of money given.

[Franzl]

Yeah, that meanie doesn't want to give me his money...guess I should hold a gun to his head. Right, Antonio?

I guess you know that it has never been about actually giving any money, right ?

If SYRIZA wins, it was a lot of money given.

Well, we wouldn't be there if the German governments didn't bullied neoliberalism on all Europe...

You know, I do think you're rather simplifying this problem. I think several things happened that even made this situation possible, such as forming a common currency in the first place, not to mention the corrupt former Greek governments falsifying their data and so on to get in.

[Franzl]

OK, I won't respond to any more post which contain "why should we pay". Now I'm sick of this mind-numbed rhetoric.

Well but it's true. You don't seem to have much respect for what belings to people (including collectively as a country). You can argue and debate what is in the best interest of all participants, but you act like Spain, Greece, whoever else have a right to German, Austrian and Finnish money. Whatever your beliefs on the Euro crisis, we are talking about sovereign countries. What you're suggesting is comparable, in principle, to saying Niger has a right to receive money from Europe because their people live in poverty (which, morally at least, is much more understandable and worthy of support.)

[Franzl]

Even if we suppose that Greece deserves all the punishment it gets, why are the Germans imposing the same punishment on countries like Ireland and Spain which were examples of fiscal prudence until 2008?

I'm not using the word punishment at all. I don't think the Greek deserve punishment , as if they were children being sent to their rooms for misbehaving.

I think we've gotten ourselves into a project that doesn't work. The financial and economic abilities of the member states are simply too great to overcome, and we can basically say that there are contradictory interests here. It appears to me that policies that would benefit the Southern countries would invariably disadvantage the Northern ones....and the other way around.