Do at least 85-90% of antiabortionists actually believe that abortion is

[Person Man]

This poll is oversimplified but the purpose is clear- How do we justify antiabortion views and the lack of support for "pro-life" measures?

Of course, it could just be considered its own thing that is a mixture of illegal sex and violence, but that would kind of put it in the same category as rape.

I think it breaks down that about a third of Americans actually think its the same as murder and among those, its probably broken down evenly between those who say it can be justified the same way that killing a live person (only for self-defense of life) and those who say it can be justified a little easier (rape and incest) and those who say it can't be justified the same way (no abortions...ever...except for maybe if the fetus was dying or that the fetus would die if the mother had life saving treatment from cancer).

After that, it gets interesting. The average voter is probably in the next third of voter. These people think that maybe abortion isn't the same as murder, but its probably sexually immoral. This group is probably divided equally amongst 3 groups. The first of this group probably think that abortion is a violent, irresponsible and  wantous act that should be punished like rape or a serious case of domestic violence. Most likely they will accept rape/incest exceptions because the goals of the law wouldn't otherwise be met in that situation. The next group probably just think that there should be laws against being a whore in general and that abortionists should be punished the way whores and johns are. However, they would probably want abortion legal in cases where a "normal" person would likely procure an abortion. i.e. The kid could be retarded, not live for long or be quadrapalegic, the mother is barely post-pubescent, or the mother would need a hysterectomy or go insane if she had to try to give birth.  The group after that probably believes that abortion is like cheating on a spouse or being a pervert in some other way. They don't want to make abortion a crime per se, but they probably want things such as mandatory ultrasounds, unreasonable waiting periods and background/licensure checks, or extremely short time frames to get an abortion (no abortions after the middle of the first trimester) or some other unreasonable (but not unduly) way to make sure that getting an abortion is expensive  or inconvienent.

The next third of the population doesn't beleive that there is anything wrong with abortion and that it is just another form of birth control...at least to a point. This third of the population is probably divided into three as well and the first of this group probably believes that abortion is just "not for them" and is for legal abortion, but will not allow medicaid to pay for them. The next third would probably beleive that abortion is an integral part of healthcare and believes it shouldn't be discriminated against in any way, shape or form. The last group probably thinks that abortion is a good thing and should probably be used to make sure people they don't like or are holding society back from being born....or simply as a way to manage the size of the population. 

[RI]

Every pro-lifer I've talked to believes abortion is murder. That's the main motivation for pro-lifers. Granted, I've mostly talked to Catholics and women, so that may be missing some segment of the movement.

[Person Man]

Every pro-lifer I've talked to believes abortion is murder. That's the main motivation for pro-lifers. Granted, I've mostly talked to Catholics and women, so that may be missing some segment of the movement.

I can believe that. Antiabortion or bureaucratic Catholics may be the only group that I think honestly believes that antiabortion is a way to provide social justice to those who have a natural right to not be aborted.

A woman's reasons for being antiabortion would probably be different from a man's because of the obvious biology of mammilian reproduction. They probably are antiabortion out of a sense of having a healthy maternal instinct and doing their part to make sure the next generation of humanity is born. Dudes are the ones who talk about "whores killing their kids to try to fit into dresses" so that they can cheat on them with a bunch of other dudes.

[TJ in Oregon]

Actually, yes I do think so. I can certainly see where this becomes an issue since much fewer people would support charging a mother with murder for aborting her child than would support outlawing abortion. But I think that has more to do with emotional sympathy for the mother than it does not really believing it's a child. They often view her as some sort of co-victim with the doctor who "talked her into it" as the real murderer. Or they see legal punishment only as a way to prevent future crime or rehabilitate offenders and don't think charging the women with murder would actually help. It probably also matters that they don't feal a sense of fear toward mothers who've had an abortion compared to other murderers. Most people have already been born so they personally have nothing to be afraid of on this front. A desire for harsh punishment is often driven as much by fear as it is by anger or revulsion.

I also think you missed an important camp in the abortion debate: those unconcerned with arguments of personhood but oppose abortion based on the thought that their parents could have aborted them. This can trigger somewhat of an emotional response and wouldn't likely result in harsh punishments for the mother.

[Person Man]

Well, for the most part, its usually the doctors who are charged with abortion and when they were prosecuted, they have never been charged with murder (well in Nazi Germany they were, but I don't think that counts). Generally, they got probation and lose their license if its an earlier stage abortion and perhaps a few years in prison if the woman got hurt or the fetus was at or was approaching the point of viability. Though in some countries that are antiabortion, a woman can get charged with something like a misdemeanor for self-aborting if it was a first trimester thing. You do have a good counter argument, though. Because an abortionist doesn't actually kill people who know that they could be next, they won't try to get rid of the offender with the same haste or motivation. Then again, when it comes to protecting people from being killed, a person's a person, right?

[TJ in Oregon]

Oh I totally support charging abortionists with murder. I was just explaining why many pro-lifers don't. I'm not saying that argument makes sense, just throwing it out there for how a lot of people think. A lot of what a lot of people think doesn't completely make sense.

I completely agree that a person is a person, but that would involve removing emotion from our justice system and trying people based only on the things they do and not on how society feels about them. We always have strange double-standards in our judicial system and we probably always will.

[Person Man]

...but the emotional effect could go the other way if all the sudden we are dealin with a new class of child murderers. What if you were punched in the stomach when pregnant?

[TJ in Oregon]

I suppose it could if that happened but it's pretty far away from what happens in most abortions. On that note, they do often charge people for murder if someone kills a fetus without the mother's consent or for double-homocide if the pregnant mother is murdered. Another emotional double-standard.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

...but the emotional effect could go the other way if all the sudden we are dealin with a new class of child murderers. What if you were punched in the stomach when pregnant?

I've heard jokes about punching a girl in the stomach after hypothetical sex and it sickens me.

[Person Man]

...but the emotional effect could go the other way if all the sudden we are dealin with a new class of child murderers. What if you were punched in the stomach when pregnant?

I've heard jokes about punching a girl in the stomach after hypothetical sex and it sickens me.

I'm pro-choice and I find it offensive.

[TJ in Oregon]

...but the emotional effect could go the other way if all the sudden we are dealin with a new class of child murderers. What if you were punched in the stomach when pregnant?

I've heard jokes about punching a girl in the stomach after hypothetical sex and it sickens me.

I'm pro-choice and I find it offensive.

Why? Is it because harming the fetus goes against the mother's wishes? Or is it because of some utilitarian reason? I've never really understood why pro-choice people are offended by such things.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Most people have mixed ideas about abortion and what to do about it, so you can't divide people up into neat groups like this.  Whether you want to call abortion "murder" or not depends on what you are implying by the term.  I don't think it's especially helpful.  It's the taking of a human life (in a rather violent fashion) and is wrong for that reason.  That doesn't mean that treating it the same as murder in the usual criminal justice sense is the best remedy.

[John Dibble]

I think most of them would say they believe that, but on the other hand I don't think it's quite so simple because I'm not sure their actions actually reflect such a belief - most of them aren't willing to go so far as kill and abortion provider or bomb a clinic. Those people most certainly believe that abortion is murder. For the rest I have to wonder if there's some sort of mental disconnect where they don't consciously realize they do distinguish some difference between abortion and what the law considers murder, even if they still think it's wrong. Or perhaps they are just bowing down to social pressure knowing that the more violent options they can take to stop abortions will get them jailed.

[afleitch]

I have to wonder if there's some sort of mental disconnect where they don't consciously realize they do distinguish some difference between abortion and what the law considers murder, even if they still think it's wrong.

I believe so. The problem with granting 'personhood' to a developing fetus that is entirely dependent on it's mother is that while you may consider the unborn to be a 'person', the law simply cannot; it is not practical. Can a pregnant mother who goes on a killing spree be arrested let alone jailed because you would also be arresting 'another person.'? If the woman's life is in danger which do you choose to save; what would be the legal obligation of healthcare professionals?

So the question hangs in the air.

[Person Man]

...but the emotional effect could go the other way if all the sudden we are dealin with a new class of child murderers. What if you were punched in the stomach when pregnant?

I've heard jokes about punching a girl in the stomach after hypothetical sex and it sickens me.

I'm pro-choice and I find it offensive.

Why? Is it because harming the fetus goes against the mother's wishes? Or is it because of some utilitarian reason? I've never really understood why pro-choice people are offended by such things.

Well, just like forcing someone to be pregnant, forcing them to have an abortion is a form of violence. Of course, you have to believe that you are acting in the defense of another for the former not to be true. I think Dibble and afleitch are on to something. It is simply impossible to consider a fetus a person for so many reasons. It just doesn't add up and people even in anti-abortion Mississippi understand this. That's probably why abortion might be more of a sex crime or battery based than murder, if it is a crime.

[courts]

No, probably more like 70%. And actually I'd identify as pro-life, albeit somewhat conflicted.

[Person Man]

No, probably more like 70%. And actually I'd identify as pro-life, albeit somewhat conflicted.

70-75%. That works. Mississippi is like 55% prolife according to SurveyUSA and voted 42% for a personhood amendment. Colorado is like 38-39% prolife and voted like 27% for theirs....