Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 12, 2019, 10:45:51 am
News: 2019 Gubernatorial Predictions close today at noon

  Atlas Forum
  Atlas Fantasy Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Government (Moderators: Gustaf, Lumine)
  Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Senate Bill For Pacific Defense and Tiawanese Protection Act  (Read 2911 times)
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20,602
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: January 02, 2005, 01:14:57 am »
« edited: January 02, 2005, 03:29:18 pm by Senator Supersoulty »

The President has requested that I submit the following legislation for debate by the Senate.


                          Taiwan Protection Act

Be it enacted by the Atlasian Senate here assembled

Section 1: The Atlasian Millitary shall send a division of Aircraft Carries to gurad the Taiwan strait.

Section 2: The Government of Atlasia shall increase funding to Taiwan by $600 million a month.

Section 3: The Atlasian Senate will be allowed to aide Pro-Democratic and Free China Operatives in Mainland China and Taiwan.

Section 4: Missle Technology will be allowed to be shared with Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea.

Section 5 This will take effect February 1, 2005.

Therefore, Taiwan will be defended by the following measures.


I have insisted that the President strike the first section.  Though he said he would pass a bill without it, I am still submitting it for the approval of the Senate as I originally recieved it.
Logged
Gabu
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28,410
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -4.32, S: -6.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2005, 01:19:41 am »

I like the idea of protecting Taiwan in principle, but I really don't like Section 1, and to a lesser extent, Section 3.  Carrying out Section 1 could easily make China very nervous, and a nervous China is not an asset to global stability and to the movement to stop all possibility of nuclear war by any means.  Section 3 I could live with if I had to, but, again, I think that openly supporting people whose goal is, as far as I can tell, the overthrow of the current Chinese government, is not a good idea.

If that's not what the Pro-Democratic and Free China Operatives are for, please correct me.

(PS: You can change your title to simply "Senator" now. Wink )
Logged
Jake
dubya2004
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,652
Cuba


Political Matrix
E: -0.90, S: -0.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2005, 01:23:41 am »

The President has requested that I submit the following legislation for debate by the Senate.


                          Taiwan Protection Act

Be it enacted by the Atlasian Senate here assembled

Section 1: The Atlasian Millitary shall send a division of Aircraft Carries to gurad the Taiwan strait.

Section 2: The Government of Atlasia shall increase funding to Taiwan by $600 million a month.

Section 3: The Atlasian Senate will be allowed to aide Pro-Democratic and Free China Operatives in Mainland China and Taiwan.

Section 4: Missle Technology will be allowed to be shared with Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea.

Section 5 This will take effect February 1, 2005.

Therefore, Taiwan will be defended by the following measures.


I have insisted that the President strike the first section.  Though he said he would pass a bill without it, I am still submitting it for the approval of the Senate as I originally recieved it.

I'm not a senator but I'll comment.

1) Aircraft Carriers are not grouped by divissions as far as I know, so I'll assume you are talking about one or two.  This would be akin to the Chinese parking their new battle fleet off of San Fransico. Gross miscalculation.

2) Instead of cash we should send newer air defense missles and radar systems like the new Patriot PAC-3/4 system.

3)I like this section

4)What type of missle types are you suggesting. Patriot PAC-3/4s, the ABMs we are developing, hopefully not Minutemen Smiley

5) No problem

I'd also add a section 6

6) The Atlasia recognizes the right of the Republic of China to sovereign rule and representation in the United Nations.  It shall be the policy of Atlasia that the RoC should be defended against any attack.
Logged
The Duke
JohnD.Ford
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9,355


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: -1.23

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2005, 01:35:07 am »

I'll make the same recommendations, more or less, that I gave the President when he asked me about this bill.

Section one must go.  As was suggested, carriers are not grouped by division.  I have qualms about mandating by law that one carrier be near Taiwan at all times (That's not specifically what it says, but it can't mean anything short term only since I already sent a carrier group and more to the area and I can't imagine someone wants to legally mandate soemthing that already happenned.)  Nor should the exact location of carriers be fixed by law.  I need flexibility on positioning these ships anywhere in WestPac where they will be most effective at any given time.  mandating their presence in the stait itself makes them provocative, vulnerable, and adds no deterrent effect above what is done by the existence of a regular carrier presence in WestPac.  As I said, this section simply must go.

$600 million a month somes to $7.2 billion per year, and would make Taiwan the #1 recipient of US aid in the world.  Make sure you want to spend that money here in this quantity before you sign off on it.

Section 3 is fine, though it carries an obvious diplomatic risk.

Section 4 is fine if limited to ABM technology.

It should read Therefore, Taiwan will be defended by the preceding measures (not "following measures") at the end.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20,602
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2005, 01:46:27 am »

I agree with the Sec. of Defense on Article 1 and would also add that, though I am not a realist, the Chinese are and they clearly see the strait and being within their shpere of influence.  Moving a battle-group there would be seen, by the Chinese, as a major threat.

Also, I am opposed at this time to any legislation that would recongnize Taiwan.  Though I dream of a day that we can make this move, our standing in the world is not as such, at the moment, for us to endevor into such a bold move against a major power.
Logged
JohnFKennedy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2005, 01:43:19 pm »

I hereby open the debate on this bill.
Logged
JohnFKennedy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2005, 01:55:42 pm »

As others have already pointed out the problems with section 1 I will not comment on that section myself.

Section 2, as John Ford has said will cost us $7.2 billion per annum which is an exorbitant amount of money, I would prefer that if we are intending to grant aid to Taiwan that it scaled back. Taiwan is not our closest ally and I would not agree with it being the greatest recipient of Atlasian aid.

Section 3 sounds risky to me, it seems to be an open act of indirect aggression against China. If we are to fund these groups in China, I would far prefer it to be done a bit more discreetly than this.

Section 4 needs clarification. Is this to be ALL Atlasian missile technology? Is it to be up-to-date top-of-the-range technology or do we mean lesser technology. I would advise against sharing the best we have with nations in these areas as it is always possible for parts to go "missing".

John Ford has already pointed out the mistake with section 5 so I do not need to.
Logged
Gabu
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28,410
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -4.32, S: -6.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2005, 06:33:42 pm »

I think that there seems to be a general consensus that we should amend this bill to strike Section 1, so I'd like to propose that amendment.

The rest of the bill I can live with, though I'm still not 100% comfortable with Section 3.
Logged
Jake
dubya2004
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,652
Cuba


Political Matrix
E: -0.90, S: -0.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2005, 07:35:24 pm »

How about something like this?


                          Taiwan Protection Act

Be it enacted by the Atlasian Senate here assembled that:

previous Section 1 removed

Section 1: The Government of Atlasia shall increase funding to Taiwan by $60 million a month.

Section 2: The Atlasian Senate will be allowed to aide Pro-Democratic and Free China Operatives in Mainland China and Taiwan.

possibly strike this section for points raised by Gabu in the Midgard Chronicle thread, mostly overt support would antagonize the chinese more.

Section 3: The Patriot Advanced Capability-3 and its associated radar and support equipment will be allowed to be shared with Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea.

Section 4 This will take effect February 1, 2005.

Therefore, Taiwan will be defended by the preceding measures.


My changes in bold.
Logged
JohnFKennedy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2005, 03:28:01 pm »

I would like to propose the amendment laid out by Jake.

As it is now time would all please vote on the amendment.

---------------

Yea
Logged
Nym90
nym90
Modadmin
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16,279
United States


Political Matrix
E: -5.55, S: -2.96

P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2005, 03:38:23 pm »

Yea.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 62,688
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2005, 06:02:09 pm »

Aye
Logged
Akno21
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9,083
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2005, 06:05:51 pm »

Are you guys allowed to vote on an amendment put out by someone not a Senator?
Logged
DanielX
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5,129
United States


Political Matrix
E: 2.45, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2005, 06:14:25 pm »

I urge Senators to pass this bill.
Logged
Gabu
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28,410
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -4.32, S: -6.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2005, 06:15:41 pm »

Are you guys allowed to vote on an amendment put out by someone not a Senator?

John F. Kennedy proposed the amendment right before calling a vote.

Regarding the amendment:

Yea.
Logged
Akno21
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9,083
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2005, 06:19:29 pm »

Are you guys allowed to vote on an amendment put out by someone not a Senator?

John F. Kennedy proposed the amendment right before calling a vote.


Thanks. I read it too quickly.
Logged
Defarge
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,601


Political Matrix
E: -3.13, S: -0.72

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2005, 10:11:00 pm »

Yea
Logged
WMS
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5,902


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -1.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2005, 11:21:08 pm »

Yea.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20,602
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2005, 11:22:13 pm »

Glad to see this out of the grave again.

I vote Aye on the amendment.
Logged
2,868,691
Harry
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 23,845
South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islan


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2005, 08:05:05 am »

the amendment passes then.
Logged
JohnFKennedy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2005, 11:11:07 am »

With seven votes in favour to none opposed I declare the amendment passed.

Now voting can begin on the amended bill seen in Jake's post on page one.


All Senators please vote yea, nay or abstain.
Logged
Bono
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11,703
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2005, 11:26:44 am »

Nay.
I abstain in the ammendment, for the record.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20,602
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2005, 12:14:03 pm »

yea
Logged
Gabu
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28,410
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -4.32, S: -6.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2005, 03:52:53 pm »

Yea.
Logged
Defarge
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,601


Political Matrix
E: -3.13, S: -0.72

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2005, 05:36:14 pm »

Yea
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length
Logout

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

© Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Elections, LLC