Obama's Catholic hospital decision
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  Obama's Catholic hospital decision
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Author Topic: Obama's Catholic hospital decision  (Read 7814 times)
TheDeadFlagBlues
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2012, 03:57:07 PM »

It's not just  those who oppose birth control that are upset about this of course.

Imagine, once was a time respecting people's rights of conscience was considered the liberal position.

What about those on these health insurance plans who don't believe in the Catholic church's line on birth control and would like for it to be covered? Where is their right of conscience?
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greenforest32
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« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2012, 03:58:48 PM »

It's not just  those who oppose birth control that are upset about this of course.

Imagine, once was a time respecting people's rights of conscience was considered the liberal position.

*yawn*

The theocrats are asking for very specific things:

1. To collect government funds and discriminate (see Catholic Charities losing their government-funded adoption contract(s) when they refuse to assist same-sex parents seeking to adopt in states with legal adoption for same-sex couples & anti-discrimination laws)

2. To be hired as a pharmacist and refuse to dispense birth control/contraceptives because it "violates their conscience"

3. To run a large medical/educational organization (such as a hospital or a university) and request exemptions from anti-discrimination laws or legal mandates that every other hospital and university must adhere to with the justification that it's a religious hospital/university and therefore should be exempt.

Should these "conscience" exemptions be granted?
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Sbane
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« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2012, 04:05:16 PM »

It's not just  those who oppose birth control that are upset about this of course.

Imagine, once was a time respecting people's rights of conscience was considered the liberal position.

If Catholic hospitals were being forced to dispense BCP's or MAP's or perform sterilization procedures, I would understand. This is about health insurance provided to their workers who work in their hospitals, not their churches.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2012, 04:11:59 PM »

In regards to the separation of church and state issue here, I'm not sure if this is a case where it applies. Even if the hospitals are associated with the Catholic Church, they aren't really run as religious institutions - they do hire non-Catholics as I understand it. Also, if they want to invoke church-state separation they would have to stop receiving any government funding for what they do, as separation works both ways.

Yeah, lemme know when you find an obstetrician who will work for a chicken... And I'm sincerely pleased to hear that your family has enjoyed good health. Many people are not so lucky.

I wish you good health as well.  But that's my point:  no obstetrician will work for a chicken.  It cost about ten thousand dollars to have our baby, and that was more than seven years ago.  Of course, we didn't pay ten thousand.  I suppose we paid maybe 300 of that, not including monthly premium payroll deductions.  But somebody paid bills totalling about ten thousand.  I know because I kept all the paperwork.  Should it cost that much?  Would it cost that much if it weren't for bureaucratic excesses?

Just have to point out that the insurance company probably didn't pay the full $10k - they don't pay sticker price so to speak, rather they either haggle it down or are already given a discounted rate.
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angus
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« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2012, 04:18:39 PM »

Just have to point out that the insurance company probably didn't pay the full $10k - they don't pay sticker price so to speak, rather they either haggle it down or are already given a discounted rate.

It's true, and I have to say that I'm in the Obamaniacs' corner on this one.  Billing is so incredibly inefficient.  All the time we go for office visits, and there's no co-payment.  Just walk in, get serviced, whatever, and walk out.  Then, a couple of months later I get a "statement" which is not a bill but that has all sorts of information:

Insurance company billed:  $129.97
Network discount:  $64.82
Insurance company pays:  $57.23
Patient responsible:  $7.82

Then, a couple of months later I get a bill for $7.82.

Really?  How many man-hours did you invest coming up with a bill for $7.82?  I'm assuming that the paperwork alone must cost more than $7.82.  It all seems so very inefficient.
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memphis
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« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2012, 08:18:53 PM »
« Edited: February 03, 2012, 08:31:47 PM by memphis »

Just have to point out that the insurance company probably didn't pay the full $10k - they don't pay sticker price so to speak, rather they either haggle it down or are already given a discounted rate.

It's true, and I have to say that I'm in the Obamaniacs' corner on this one.  Billing is so incredibly inefficient.  All the time we go for office visits, and there's no co-payment.  Just walk in, get serviced, whatever, and walk out.  Then, a couple of months later I get a "statement" which is not a bill but that has all sorts of information:

Insurance company billed:  $129.97
Network discount:  $64.82
Insurance company pays:  $57.23
Patient responsible:  $7.82

Then, a couple of months later I get a bill for $7.82.

Really?  How many man-hours did you invest coming up with a bill for $7.82?  I'm assuming that the paperwork alone must cost more than $7.82.  It all seems so very inefficient.

You'll get no argument from me that the private insurance racket is the most inefficient method possible to dispense healthcare. Too many hands in the cookie jar. And then there are all the salespeople pretending educate doctors about new drugs and procedures. Healthcare is easily the most crooked industry in America. Makes Wall Street look like a bunch of nuns.
And I'm with you in your earlier post about making drugs more accessible. But mundane doctor visits for strep throat and the antibiotics isn't where the money is. It's a problem for the very poor when they get strep throat, but it's not where you'll find the real healthcare cost issue. It's all about the procedures and hospital stays, especially for older people and those with chronic conditions. I doubt very much you'd perform your own colonoscopy.
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angus
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« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2012, 11:09:53 PM »

I know we have some agreement about the nature of the problem, memphis, but obviously we have some different conclusions.  I still think that the fundamental issue in this thread stems not from some anti-Catholic bias, but rather from the kneejerk reaction that the solution to a problem obviously created by too much government intervention is more government intervention.  The solution to the problems created by too much Uncle Sam is less Uncle Sam.  Sometimes the Emperor really is naked, and I admit to no shame in being the child who recognizes that.
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shua
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« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2012, 03:41:26 PM »

It's not just  those who oppose birth control that are upset about this of course.

Imagine, once was a time respecting people's rights of conscience was considered the liberal position.

What about those on these health insurance plans who don't believe in the Catholic church's line on birth control and would like for it to be covered? Where is their right of conscience?
What I would like for you to do for me has nothing to do with following my conscience.
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« Reply #83 on: February 05, 2012, 03:12:12 PM »
« Edited: February 05, 2012, 03:14:04 PM by With Man Gone, Where There Be Hope for Gorilla? »

You want to fire up the base? I guarantee this will be in every sermon across the nation on Sunday morning and we will vote for the Republican nominee- whoever it is. If Romney wins, I do not like the man but I will vote for him proudly after this decision!

Nope! The title was "Loving God and Your Neighbors" and went over Acts 10 and showing hospitality and kindness to the people actually around you in your life. Something the Catholic Church should heed actually...
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patrick1
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« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2012, 03:40:23 PM »

You want to fire up the base? I guarantee this will be in every sermon across the nation on Sunday morning and we will vote for the Republican nominee- whoever it is. If Romney wins, I do not like the man but I will vote for him proudly after this decision!

Nope! The title was "Loving God and Your Neighbors" and went over Acts 10 and showing hospitality and kindness to the people actually around you in your life. Something the Catholic Church should heed actually...

BRTD, how many schools, hospitals or multi-billion dollar charitable organizations does your church run?  Why would they talk about something that really has no affect on them?  This was an issue because the RCC employs a lot of people, and the bill is putting them in a position to fund things that are against doctrine- no matter what individual congregants may think about it.
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BRTD
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« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2012, 04:09:48 PM »

True there is no reason for them to talk about it but:

You want to fire up the base? I guarantee this will be in every sermon across the nation on Sunday morning and we will vote for the Republican nominee- whoever it is. If Romney wins, I do not like the man but I will vote for him proudly after this decision!

And how many of those people employed aren't even Catholic?
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patrick1
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« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2012, 04:56:39 PM »

There are many people who work for a Catholic org that are not Catholic.  I personally had Jewish, Protestant and non religious teachers growing up.  This isn't about a campaign to get rid of birth control, morning after or sterilizations for their employees.  The substance of this particular argument is that they do not want to pay for and thereby promote something they find morally objectionable.
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BRTD
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« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2012, 04:58:27 PM »

As someone who has shopped at a Muslim-owned liquor store before I'm having a very difficult time seeing why I should care.
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Nathan
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« Reply #88 on: February 06, 2012, 01:28:40 PM »
« Edited: February 06, 2012, 01:31:17 PM by Nathan »

Never met a Catholic girl who wasn't on the pill.

One of my friends is a Buddhist girl who has in the past gone off on a tangent about how hormonal birth control disagrees with her interpretation of the sutras and throws the body askew of the Middle Way. (Not a hippie Buddhist girl. Her family is Japanese and Korean.)
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MSG
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« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2012, 10:27:23 PM »

To me this is a simple problem to fix. If the catholic church does not want to pay for things like this or compromise their mission and the integrity of their institution STOP ACCEPTING FEDERAL FUNDS. You dont get something for nothing. When two groups who hold different ethics and morals enter into an agreement one side is going to have to compromise their identity do you really think it will be the government. Therefore, just like people have been saying since Madison railed against Patrick Henry's supplemental pay for teacher tax it is the to the detriment of both the government and the religious groups or institutions when funds are given/accepted. Faith based initiatives ,charitable choice, and all of the other various tax payer money grabs by the religious institutions are all unconstitutional but even more they are philosophically wrong for the government and the religious institutions. Some of the strongest opponents of the F.B.I. were mega church ministers fearing a loss of their religious identity. Also anyone who supports the Hyde Adm. and F.B.I./ charitable choice and does not see how that is hypocritical makes me laugh.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #90 on: February 08, 2012, 04:25:27 PM »

To me this is a simple problem to fix. If the catholic church does not want to pay for things like this or compromise their mission and the integrity of their institution STOP ACCEPTING FEDERAL FUNDS.

Indeed, and I should think that these purported fiscal conservatives would be lauding any decision that reduces federal expenditures.
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Link
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« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2012, 04:44:12 PM »

I didnt know about this until today and I am offended as a Christian... I have tried to give the President the benefit of the doubt...

That's a lie.
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Link
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« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2012, 04:50:04 PM »

Overly dramatic much? Religion does not dictate what the law should be, it's as simple as that.

Religion should be protected from government wherever possible... this is a violation of the separation of church and state- which was meant to protect the former not the latter!

You do realize that the majority of states already require religious based hospitals, etc to cover the cost of contraception.  You realize that right?

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Link
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« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2012, 04:54:51 PM »

Never met a Catholic girl who wasn't on the pill.

One of my friends is a Buddhist girl who has in the past gone off on a tangent about how hormonal birth control disagrees with her interpretation of the sutras and throws the body askew of the Middle Way. (Not a hippie Buddhist girl. Her family is Japanese and Korean.)

Mumbo Jumbo is gibberish in any languange.
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Nathan
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« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2012, 09:36:35 PM »
« Edited: February 08, 2012, 09:39:16 PM by Nathan »

Never met a Catholic girl who wasn't on the pill.

One of my friends is a Buddhist girl who has in the past gone off on a tangent about how hormonal birth control disagrees with her interpretation of the sutras and throws the body askew of the Middle Way. (Not a hippie Buddhist girl. Her family is Japanese and Korean.)

Mumbo Jumbo is gibberish in any languange.

What on Earth are you talking about?

Incidentally, her argument isn't bad at all if one accepts the tenets of the Shingon school and takes the fact that the Womb Mandala is named what it is seriously (which, in a highly esoteric and mystical school like Shingon, quite a few people do).
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shua
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« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2012, 01:13:06 PM »

To me this is a simple problem to fix. If the catholic church does not want to pay for things like this or compromise their mission and the integrity of their institution STOP ACCEPTING FEDERAL FUNDS.

Indeed, and I should think that these purported fiscal conservatives would be lauding any decision that reduces federal expenditures.
As much as you might like Catholic hospitals to refuse Medicare and Medicaid, this decision has nothing to do with that.  The law isn't dependent on accepting federal funds.

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Oakvale
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« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2012, 03:01:44 PM »

Has anyone posted the data yet showing that 97-99% of Catholic women use contraception?
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2012, 03:29:12 PM »

Has anyone posted the data yet showing that 97-99% of Catholic women use contraception?

Popular as that factoid is, it doesn't make for a great argument against the Church's position as its religious beliefs are not determined by popular vote. Nor should they be.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2012, 03:48:30 PM »

Has anyone posted the data yet showing that 97-99% of Catholic women use contraception?

Popular as that factoid is, it doesn't make for a great argument against the Church's position as its religious beliefs are not determined by popular vote. Nor should they be.

My point was more that this is been spun as some kind of devestating political blunder, which I don't think it is.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2012, 03:50:34 PM »

Has anyone posted the data yet showing that 97-99% of Catholic women use contraception?

Popular as that factoid is, it doesn't make for a great argument against the Church's position as its religious beliefs are not determined by popular vote. Nor should they be.

My point was more that this is been spun as some kind of devestating political blunder, which I don't think it is.

Yeah, it's not a devastating blunder (and certainly not in electoral terms), and the Church isn't being entirely reasonable here, but the Obama decision still strikes me as poor.
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