'God' and healing

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Really? Were these people ever documented?

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now.  So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Really? Were these people ever documented?

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now.  So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

You regrew a limb that was cut off?

You know what I’m referring to - the provision God gave me to fulfill my God given commission.

Why do my commission and testimony so perfectly match the bible?  Why does the provision given to me so perfectly match my commission and testimony?

Unless we’re discussing extra-biblical history, you know my arguments are organic (I didn’t glean them from other people) and not cut and pasted from the internet.  You know I only use the bible to interpret the bible.  You’ve see others, time and time again, come on here with something cut and pasted from the “experts” (both Christian and non-Christian), yet seen me effortlessly pinpoint where they logically jumped the tracks.

You’ve seen me time and time again enter a scriptural argument and not even flinch at the credentials of whatever author the poster is quoting.  Now, on the surface you may find that arrogant, except for the fact that, from your POV, my interpretation best matches the intent of the NT writers.  In addition, you also respect my approach to scripture.  You know I use many built-in safe guards (e.g. using 2 or 3 witnesses) in order to keep me balanced doctrinally.  And you know that I’m not pushing any denominational agenda, for you’ve seen me self-correct when the scriptural evidence warrants.

You know my testimony does not advocate one group or church over another.  In fact, I wasn’t even a member of any group at the time of my testimony.  Furthermore, even though I wasn’t a member of a group at the time of my testimony, I did seek out a church, so I am not seeking my own followers, nor am I advocating other Christians to remain without a church.  What’s more, when I did find a church, I didn’t attempt a coup or even to rise through the ranks, rather I stayed true to my own calling (commission) and am content with being a Sunday school teacher.  And even though my testimony claims God spoke to me, I’ve never attempted to climb to a position within my church God didn’t call me into.

In fact, I was so outside of an organized church when I was saved that night alone in my apartment in Oct 92, I didn’t even know whether my experience was common or uncommon, and I wondered for a day or two if I were the only one on earth God was talking to and if it meant I would become a minister.  But I feel back on what God actually said to me and he did NOT tell me to become a pastor, rather he simply called me to express his truth to others.

Also, the truth that I am advocating is not something wildly half-baked – I’m not pulling a Joseph Smith – rather it focuses on the profoundness and the simplicity found in Christ.

So, how do you explain that my testimony, commission, and provision are completely “organic” (I didn’t glean them from other people) and in such agreement with the bible?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Really? Were these people ever documented?

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now.  So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

You're going wildly off topic. I can summarise; as a rationalist your testimony of your religious 'revelation' is as relevant to me as is the testimony of someone who found Allah in the desert, someone who espouses the benefits of Dienetics or a farmer who has told me about his voyage to Sirius in a spacecraft…

So, when presented with the evidence you seek from Christians, you then require it be proven superior to the evidence of other religions?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yeah, I do, which is why I asked a rhetorical question. Afleitch was asking for documentation about a specific claim about amputated limbs growing back. Your testimony involves something happening to you that wasn't a demonstrable physical change, whereas the claim in question was about something that clearly would have been a demonstrable physical change if it indeed happened. Do you not understand why the two things are in different categories, hence why your testimony isn't relevant to the question?

Well, since I have had neither a limb restored nor even a limb that has fallen off (knock on wood), why don’t we stick to the category of claimed miracles we do have in hand?

I mean, what’s more impressive, the fact that Moses’ staff physically changed into a snake, or the fact that God’s spiritual provision to Moses granted him victory over Pharaoh to the glory of God?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Well, since I have had neither a limb restored nor even a limb that has fallen off (knock on wood), why don’t we stick to the category of claimed miracles we do have in hand?

I mean, what’s more impressive, the fact that Moses’ staff physically changed into a snake, or the fact that God’s spiritual provision to Moses granted him victory over Pharaoh to the glory of God?

Which is more impressive is irrelevant if neither of them happened. What source outside of the Bible do we have to confirm that this ever happened?

Dang, Dibble, I waited nearly a week to open this thread because I thought the response to my comment would require my having to write a long post, and I wanted to make sure I had the time to do it properly.  But you proved me wrong – there was no need for me to wait, for you step-sided, once again, my whole point.

You simply refuse to turn on the lights to examine the miracle staring you in the face (most likely due to the fact you can’t explain it away), and instead attempt to discount miracles you don’t readily have available to examine.  

You know in my last post I only referenced Moses as an analogy to demonstrate a simple point: that the provision God gave me and the results of that provision, are more impressive than a physical healing.  So, since you don’t have a physical miraculous healing in hand to examine, but you do have in hand a more impressive miracle, why not examine what’s available to examine?

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You've known me long enough to know I don’t run around half-cocked – I don’t claim God is constantly talking to me and/or giving me signs.  But I do claim to know his voice.  And I do claim to have been given a commission by his voice and the provisions to fulfill that commission.

Now, you obviously can’t examine my claim of God speaking to me and giving me a commission, but you can examine some of the provisions he gave me and whether or not I was able to accomplish my claimed commission through the use of those provisions.

So why not examine it?

John 3:20 “Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

again, you're ignoring the provisions.  but, that's ok, I'm not really interested in going through it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

again, you're ignoring the provisions.  but, that's ok, I'm not really interested in going through it.

And again, the provisions are irrelevant if you aren't actually talking with God.

you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.   you're basically saying, "you miraculous healing is irrelevant if you weren't actually healed by God."  On one hand you're asking for proof God has done something miraculous, then on the other, you say, "doesn't matter what happen if God didn't actually do it."

If not from God, then how do you explain the provisions and how they align with the supposedly fake commission and testimony.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Since I don't have a time machine and a remote brain scanner to see exactly what was going on in your head at the time I can't say anything for certain. However, given at the time you were already studying the Bible I don't particularly find it odd that if you had a religious experience which meshes with the subject matter you were studying.

I am not talking about testing my conversion experience after read just 3 chapters of Galatians, which you can’t test directly.  Rather I am talking about testing the provision God gave me during that conversion experience.

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It's not all that different from people who claim to have been abducted by UFOs. Quite often their testimony matches that of various media, but do you take them seriously just because they make a claim that matches up with something else that isn't exactly a reliable source of information? No, of course you wouldn't, so why should I do so with your testimony?

This is a perfect example.  If this abducted person claimed to have been given new skills (in an area he was neither acquainted with nor trained in) that fit a specific commission he was given while abducted…and successfully completed that mission, and had demonstrated his skills in your presence time and time again over a period of years…it should give you more than a moments pause.

So it is in my case – you have much more than a life changing experience on your hands, and you even have more than observable results of a completed commission.  You have the demonstrable skill (provision).

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Ok, for the sake of refreshing everyone's memory and for the sake of me not arguing with a strawman if you really want to continue this can you give the specifics of your provision - exactly what skills have you been granted? Be succinct if possible, you don't need to go over the whole story again.

My testimony has God opening my eyes to the meaning of scripture and anointing me with his Spirit and commissioning me to go preach the truth to my friends in a legalistic church…and the provision he gave me was the ability understanding and teach the scripture and to dissect doctrinal error.

Now, if my testimony is simply a figment of my imagination, then why is it that you, a non-believer with no denominational biases, agree with my interpretation, even though I have had no formal training?

So not only are the results of my testimony clearly seen (I was friends with several families in the upper leadership of the World Wide Church of God, and I was summoned before it’s leadership, involved the world headquarters in Pasadena CA, used as an instrument in the breakup the World Wide Church of God, helped bring numerous members of those families to the truth, and ended up marrying one of its members and have had four kids with her)…but the provision God gave me to do all that is clearly visible.

In fact, my provision is so clear to you, that you probably can’t name one other Christian, famous or non-famous, whose interpretation you agree with more than mine.

Well, Dibble, you can't have both ways:  you can't agree with my interpretation of the bible on the one hand and then turn around and blame me for turning you off to Christianity.

Sure I can - I had a different interpretation before that I rather liked, and you convinced me of an intepretation that I like much less, thus turning me off to Christianity. It's a rather simple series of events.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Now, if my testimony is simply a figment of my imagination, then why is it that you, a non-believer with no denominational biases, agree with my interpretation, even though I have had no formal training?

Because you were much more informed of the actual contents of the book at the time, having read them many times after your experience, and once I was informed of those contents appropriately I have this skill called "reading comprehension" that allows me to interpret the contents. I happened to agree with your interpretation on the matters at hand. That's hardly miraculous.

1)   my conversion experience included many doctrinal details (like the fire in my bones) that I was so unaware of at the time, I thought I was the only one on earth who had experienced such a thing.
2)   And I immediately started to be able to digest the “meat” scripture, so it wasn’t a skill I “developed” by reading it many times.  And this is provable in the fact that even though I am untrained, I was able in my own spare time to interpret it better than anyone you’ve read or listened to.  If it simply came through study, then why are you in agreement with me and not those who have had more hours of study?

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Also, are you saying you didn't have "reading comprehension" in your skill set before your experience?

No, I couldn’t understand the bible before that night.  I had attempted to read sections of it before, but reading it back then was like was like being lost in a vast ocean.  It was only that night that everything just began to click and I could spiritually understand what was written.

So, if my “reading compression” in regard to the bible was not a gift from God, then why did you need me to bring you into a better interpretation?!

Well, Dibble, you can't have both ways:  you can't agree with my interpretation of the bible on the one hand and then turn around and blame me for turning you off to Christianity.

Sure I can – I had a different interpretation before that I rather liked, and you convinced me of an intepretation that I like much less, thus turning me off to Christianity. It's a rather simple series of events.

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Churches collapse and schism. People convert to and from different denominations. This happens in pretty much every religion. It's not evidence for a miracle.

So, it’s just a freak coincidence that I was in exactly the right place (having spent dozens of nights at the homes of several of the most important members of its leadership) at exactly the right time (’92-‘95) and had exactly the right skill (ability to correctly layout NT theology as it related to that church) – a skill I didn’t have before my conversion?

That’s a pretty huge coincidence – but it doesn’t come close to the evidence of my God-given provision.

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You seem to have forgotten I have still argued against some of your interpretations on some things in the Bible - slavery for instance. The particular agreement in interpretation you reference is largely in regards to what is considered a sin in the Bible, like homosexuality.

Yes, I know you ignore the book of Philemon and other passages in an attempt to claim Christianity promotes slavery…but name a single Christian, whose OVERALL interpretation (even when you’re being a obvious hack as in the case of slavery) you are more in agreement with?

Let me be very clear:  I am neither claiming perfect interpretation nor complete knowledge of scripture.  But I am claiming a true calling with true provisions.  Provisions sufficient enough to successfully complete my commission, and sufficient enough to run circles around the vast majority of those with formal training.  And not because I am more intelligent than them, but because me calling is REAL.  Nor did I seek, desire, of choose my calling.  In fact, I had no knowledge of what it meant to be called by God.

And not only is my provision evident to you, but the details of my testimony (the unstructured setting of my apartment, receiving the Spirit after understand but a brief message, the fire in my bones, God speaking to me and revealing to me that the events of my life that led me to have contact with the World Wide Church of God were all planned out by God years before that night, receiving a commission from God, being given provisional gifts from God to accomplish the commission that were not based on man’s strength, being led by God throughout my mission, succeeding in my mission, having my life defined by that success) are in complete agreement with the bible and mesh with many biblical examples of people being called into God’s service.

And you are aware of this and see a parallel between the attributes of my calling and those biblical examples, whether it be Moses’ calling, or Paul’s calling (not that I am equating myself to them).  So, not only does my provision meet your interpretational agreement, but the details of my calling are reflected in many biblical examples.

So, not only does my testimony and commission agree with scripture, but the provision given to me is in agreement with the bible, and is, overall, the best interpretation of the bible you’ve ever heard  -an interpretation you didn’t even share until I explained it to you.

So, my provision not only is able to preach the Gospel to believers, it also presents an overall interpretation that even non-believers like yourself agree is understandable and the best undistorted version of NT theology.

2Cor 4:1 Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.