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  Issue you disagree with the other party on the most
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Author Topic: Issue you disagree with the other party on the most  (Read 114038 times)
tinman64
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« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2005, 02:20:36 am »

GOP - Environment, Abortion

Dems -  throwing money at problems, Death Penalty
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Nym90
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« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2005, 12:39:56 pm »

GOP-

1. Zealous, even religious support of the established and powerful, not just a lack of compassion but an ideological anti-compassion. This is what I hate most about the GOP and makes me a Democrat.

2. Ties to race-based elements. For example, their support of the Confederate flag in government, their alliance with the xenophobic groups who are some of their more extreme (if not more vocal) supporters. This ties with "issue" #1 as most aversive characteristic of the right.

3. Generally bitter outlook on others and a constant mentality of confrontation that they thrive on. For so-called Christrians, they seem to be always looking for different groups to hate for not conforming to this or that. In foreign policy this means an us-or-them, zero-sum attitude against anything resembling a principle that peaceful, mutual success is an inherent positive and which is a long term recipie for strife.

Democrats-

1. Support of programs and attitudes that undercut individual responsibility. For example, the idea that its bad for parents to discipline their children, that families should not be protected, that children's self-esteem is more important than accurate assessment of reality, and a condescending lowering of expectations towards minorities and other disadvantaged.

2. Religious/spiritual vacuousness. Every party likes to feel morally superior, but the Democrats dont even try to believe in or pretend to promote anything other than an animalistic, relativist universe. No wonder they find it harder to inspire impassioned commitment than the GOP.

3. Knee-jerk anti-capitalism and anti-Americanism (btw, this is what separates the liberals from the Left). The bizzare self-loathing of the far left and their convulted, condescending and nonsensical explanations for these tendencies continues to baffle me whenever I encounter them.

Fabulous post, Beet. I agree completely.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2005, 01:34:13 pm »

Abortion
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Nym90
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« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2005, 01:35:58 pm »


That's definitely an issue in which the Democrats need to get their message out better.

I hate the fact that we don't seem like we care about abortion or want to reduce it at all.
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Akno21
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« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2005, 06:11:02 pm »

The Democrats need to make it picture clear that they are not for abortion, but for abortion rights. We also need to stop being fake about what we try to do. Kerry is not an openly religous guy. I'd rather see him not discuss it all then do it in the phony way he did. We do pander too much to the African-American community, but do we have a choice? Could we win PA, MI, OH (theoretically), MN, FL, WA without large Black Democratic turnout in Philadelphia, Detriot, Cleveland, The Twin Cities, Miami/Jacksonville, and Seattle?
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Blue Rectangle
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« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2005, 07:00:30 pm »

The Democrats need to make it picture clear that they are not for abortion, but for abortion rights. We also need to stop being fake about what we try to do. Kerry is not an openly religous guy. I'd rather see him not discuss it all then do it in the phony way he did. We do pander too much to the African-American community, but do we have a choice? Could we win PA, MI, OH (theoretically), MN, FL, WA without large Black Democratic turnout in Philadelphia, Detriot, Cleveland, The Twin Cities, Miami/Jacksonville, and Seattle?
Phony: a good name for Kerry's abortion stance.  He was fine when he claimed the ol' "I personally oppose abortion, but I don't think it is the government's business" line.  When he then said that the government should then pay for abortions, he contradicted his earlier "it's not the government's business" claim.

The abortion issue is not a 50/50 wedge issue.  It is a 33/33/33 wedge issue.  There are three roughly equal positions:
1. Abortion is wrong and it ought to be illegal.
2. Abortion is wrong, but in a religious sense--therefore the government should not ban it.
3. Abortion is an unfortunate fact of life and is not "wrong" in any sense.  The government should protect, and even provide, access to abortion.

If Republicans strongly support #1, they lose 2 to 1.  Kerry's mistake was analogous.
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Alcon
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« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2005, 07:36:37 pm »

The Democrats need to make it picture clear that they are not for abortion, but for abortion rights. We also need to stop being fake about what we try to do. Kerry is not an openly religous guy. I'd rather see him not discuss it all then do it in the phony way he did. We do pander too much to the African-American community, but do we have a choice? Could we win PA, MI, OH (theoretically), MN, FL, WA without large Black Democratic turnout in Philadelphia, Detriot, Cleveland, The Twin Cities, Miami/Jacksonville, and Seattle?
Phony: a good name for Kerry's abortion stance.  He was fine when he claimed the ol' "I personally oppose abortion, but I don't think it is the government's business" line.  When he then said that the government should then pay for abortions, he contradicted his earlier "it's not the government's business" claim.

The abortion issue is not a 50/50 wedge issue.  It is a 33/33/33 wedge issue.  There are three roughly equal positions:
1. Abortion is wrong and it ought to be illegal.
2. Abortion is wrong, but in a religious sense--therefore the government should not ban it.
3. Abortion is an unfortunate fact of life and is not "wrong" in any sense.  The government should protect, and even provide, access to abortion.

If Republicans strongly support #1, they lose 2 to 1.  Kerry's mistake was analogous.

Wow, then I must fall into the 1% who think that it should be strongly discouraged, but legal only in the first trimester, yet still very strongly discouraged.
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dazzleman
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« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2005, 08:42:01 pm »


That's definitely an issue in which the Democrats need to get their message out better.

I hate the fact that we don't seem like we care about abortion or want to reduce it at all.

For the feminists, abortion is sacred, and their whole movement is centered around it.  With the stranglehold that those people have on the Democratic party, how could the party get across a message that says that abortion should be reduced?  That would suggest that it's not desirable, a thought which is anathema to the radical feminists who form such an integral part of the Democratic base.
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Beet
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« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2005, 09:13:31 pm »

GOP-

1. Zealous, even religious support of the established and powerful, not just a lack of compassion but an ideological anti-compassion. This is what I hate most about the GOP and makes me a Democrat.

2. Ties to race-based elements. For example, their support of the Confederate flag in government, their alliance with the xenophobic groups who are some of their more extreme (if not more vocal) supporters. This ties with "issue" #1 as most aversive characteristic of the right.

3. Generally bitter outlook on others and a constant mentality of confrontation that they thrive on. For so-called Christrians, they seem to be always looking for different groups to hate for not conforming to this or that. In foreign policy this means an us-or-them, zero-sum attitude against anything resembling a principle that peaceful, mutual success is an inherent positive and which is a long term recipie for strife.

Democrats-

1. Support of programs and attitudes that undercut individual responsibility. For example, the idea that its bad for parents to discipline their children, that families should not be protected, that children's self-esteem is more important than accurate assessment of reality, and a condescending lowering of expectations towards minorities and other disadvantaged.

2. Religious/spiritual vacuousness. Every party likes to feel morally superior, but the Democrats dont even try to believe in or pretend to promote anything other than an animalistic, relativist universe. No wonder they find it harder to inspire impassioned commitment than the GOP.

3. Knee-jerk anti-capitalism and anti-Americanism (btw, this is what separates the liberals from the Left). The bizzare self-loathing of the far left and their convulted, condescending and nonsensical explanations for these tendencies continues to baffle me whenever I encounter them.

Fabulous post, Beet. I agree completely.

I was trying to follow Storebought's advice of intellectual and emotional honesty as much as possible.
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opebo
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« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2005, 07:25:10 am »


That's definitely an issue in which the Democrats need to get their message out better.

I hate the fact that we don't seem like we care about abortion or want to reduce it at all.

For the feminists, abortion is sacred, and their whole movement is centered around it.  With the stranglehold that those people have on the Democratic party, how could the party get across a message that says that abortion should be reduced?  That would suggest that it's not desirable, a thought which is anathema to the radical feminists who form such an integral part of the Democratic base.

Lots of us like abortion.  Should we be unrespresented?  The Democrats will never win by becoming GOP wannabes, abandoning our base to try to win a sliver of the religious fanatic vote. 
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Blue Rectangle
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« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2005, 12:11:53 pm »


That's definitely an issue in which the Democrats need to get their message out better.

I hate the fact that we don't seem like we care about abortion or want to reduce it at all.

For the feminists, abortion is sacred, and their whole movement is centered around it.  With the stranglehold that those people have on the Democratic party, how could the party get across a message that says that abortion should be reduced?  That would suggest that it's not desirable, a thought which is anathema to the radical feminists who form such an integral part of the Democratic base.

Lots of us like abortion.  Should we be unrespresented?  The Democrats will never win by becoming GOP wannabes, abandoning our base to try to win a sliver of the religious fanatic vote. 
You like abortion?  Huh.  I guess I should make that catagory #4, representing 1% of the electorate.

Thank you, opebo, for providing us with a strawman.
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Cigarettes & Saints
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« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2005, 01:58:58 pm »

If I were a girl, I might care about abortion and develop an opinion of whether or not it was moral and all that stuff. But I'm not, so I don't.

Anyway, I have to say gay marriage since I think the Constitutional amendment is the most idiotic thing ever and shows a complete disrespect for the Constitution. It's not intended to be amended for every wedge issue.
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A18
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« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2005, 02:08:09 pm »

Gay marriage is not a wedge issue.
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opebo
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« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2005, 02:22:00 pm »

Gay marriage is not a wedge issue.

By wedge issue I think he means one that divides a portion of the electorate from the party where most of its interests lie, because of one thing that really riles them.  Gay marriage is the perfect example - lots of intolerant poor people vote GOP because they hate gays, in spite of the fact that Republican rule is terribly detrimental to their own economic interests. 
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TeePee4Prez
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« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2005, 04:38:32 pm »

The Democrats need to make it picture clear that they are not for abortion, but for abortion rights. We also need to stop being fake about what we try to do. Kerry is not an openly religous guy. I'd rather see him not discuss it all then do it in the phony way he did. We do pander too much to the African-American community, but do we have a choice? Could we win PA, MI, OH (theoretically), MN, FL, WA without large Black Democratic turnout in Philadelphia, Detriot, Cleveland, The Twin Cities, Miami/Jacksonville, and Seattle?

Well said Akno.  I share a lot fo what you just said.  I too feel the Democratic party panders to African Americans too much, but hey what are we going to do?  The Democratic party in the Philadelphia is factionalized into the following: African Americans, suburban/Center City progressives, and Northeast/South Philly union members.  If you were to put these groups into a room together, there would be massive chaos.  Example: the black and NE/South Philly Dems are relatively socially conservative and may not like gay marriage and abortion, but for the suburban/CC Dems, it's their core issues.  The pandering to the NAACP would not bode well to the suburban or union Dems but to North and West Philly, it's fine.  And on the economic issues, the Philly Dems would be on board, but to the progressives, it may not be such a big deal.  This is why the Democratic party is disorganized. 

We have the challenge of explaining our complex positions.  Our problem is our positions are not black and white.  Simple minded people like simple minded positions such as "pro-life" and "tax cuts."     
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« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2005, 04:55:58 pm »

We have the challenge of explaining our complex positions.  Our problem is our positions are not black and white.  Simple minded people like simple minded positions such as "pro-life" and "tax cuts." 

This is the same tired old refrain that I've heard time and time again, but the truth is, often when one can't explain one's position it really means one does not know what one's position is. This was no small factor in destroying Kerry.
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Akno21
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« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2005, 05:25:56 pm »

The Democrats need to make it picture clear that they are not for abortion, but for abortion rights. We also need to stop being fake about what we try to do. Kerry is not an openly religous guy. I'd rather see him not discuss it all then do it in the phony way he did. We do pander too much to the African-American community, but do we have a choice? Could we win PA, MI, OH (theoretically), MN, FL, WA without large Black Democratic turnout in Philadelphia, Detriot, Cleveland, The Twin Cities, Miami/Jacksonville, and Seattle?

Well said Akno.  I share a lot fo what you just said.  I too feel the Democratic party panders to African Americans too much, but hey what are we going to do?  The Democratic party in the Philadelphia is factionalized into the following: African Americans, suburban/Center City progressives, and Northeast/South Philly union members.  If you were to put these groups into a room together, there would be massive chaos.  Example: the black and NE/South Philly Dems are relatively socially conservative and may not like gay marriage and abortion, but for the suburban/CC Dems, it's their core issues.  The pandering to the NAACP would not bode well to the suburban or union Dems but to North and West Philly, it's fine.  And on the economic issues, the Philly Dems would be on board, but to the progressives, it may not be such a big deal.  This is why the Democratic party is disorganized. 

We have the challenge of explaining our complex positions.  Our problem is our positions are not black and white.  Simple minded people like simple minded positions such as "pro-life" and "tax cuts."     

I'm not sure how against abortion the black community is. I know much of them are against gay marriage, but blacks have a disproportiantly higher unwanted pregnency rate than the rest of society, so wouldn't they be liberal somewhat on that issue? Poor inner-city people know first hand how damaging it can be to live in an unsupportive household.

Before we bash the hell out of the Kerry campaign, keep in mind that 150,000 votes and he is gonna get inagurated in 5 days.
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TeePee4Prez
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« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2005, 06:30:08 pm »

I know more blacks are pro-choice, but a surprisingly large number are very religious and pro-life, yet staunch Dems.   
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Akno21
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« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2005, 08:22:08 pm »

I know more blacks are pro-choice, but a surprisingly large number are very religious and pro-life, yet staunch Dems.   

I'm aware many are religous, I just would think they would have a pro-choice position, which the vast majority do anyway.
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Blue Rectangle
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« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2005, 01:36:27 pm »

I'm not sure how against abortion the black community is. I know much of them are against gay marriage, but blacks have a disproportiantly higher unwanted pregnency rate than the rest of society, so wouldn't they be liberal somewhat on that issue? Poor inner-city people know first hand how damaging it can be to live in an unsupportive household.
I imagine there is a huge difference between urban and rural blacks on this issue.  Your point about urban blacks and abortion is probably accurate.  Rural blacks, especially those in the south, are on the opposite side.  The positions on abortion that work with the black community in New Jersey or New York won't work in Arkansas and Virgina (or to a lesser extent, Ohio).
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J. J.
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« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2005, 02:18:39 pm »

If I were a girl, I might care about abortion and develop an opinion of whether or not it was moral and all that stuff. But I'm not, so I don't.

Anyway, I have to say gay marriage since I think the Constitutional amendment is the most idiotic thing ever and shows a complete disrespect for the Constitution. It's not intended to be amended for every wedge issue.

It isn't in principle.  I support a constitution amendment prohibiting the federal courts from finding a right for same sex marriages.  The principle though is that I don't the Massachusetts courts or the Massachusetts legislature to tell the people of Pennsylvania what types of marriages to accept or recognizes.  Likewise, I don't want the Pennsylvania courts or legislature telling the people of Massachusetts what types of marriages to accept or recognize.
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Akno21
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« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2005, 08:37:26 pm »

I'm not sure how against abortion the black community is. I know much of them are against gay marriage, but blacks have a disproportiantly higher unwanted pregnency rate than the rest of society, so wouldn't they be liberal somewhat on that issue? Poor inner-city people know first hand how damaging it can be to live in an unsupportive household.
I imagine there is a huge difference between urban and rural blacks on this issue.  Your point about urban blacks and abortion is probably accurate.  Rural blacks, especially those in the south, are on the opposite side.  The positions on abortion that work with the black community in New Jersey or New York won't work in Arkansas and Virgina (or to a lesser extent, Ohio).

That makes sense. The Southern Black Democrat likely votes more on equality and economic matters, I would suppose.
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« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2005, 03:43:08 pm »

Religion in School.
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« Reply #98 on: February 26, 2005, 10:04:03 pm »

Foreign policy.  Estranging the world will not help us when we inevitably have to confront China in this century.
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TomC
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« Reply #99 on: February 26, 2005, 11:19:59 pm »

Republicans: Social issues, their desire to impose their idea of Christian values on 100% of the country.

Democrats: The notion that every problem can be solved with a new spending program.

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