Would Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt recognize the Republican Party?

[TommyC1776]

Leave your opinions here.  I certainly think they'd be shocked the Republican Party had got further right than they had seen in their day.

[TomC]

How so? You think Teddy and Abe were more for abortions and gay marriage? Medicare part D and farm subsidies? Would Lincoln have thought the Patriot Act curbed civil liberties too much during war time?

[Frodo]

How so? You think Teddy and Abe were more for abortions and gay marriage? Medicare part D and farm subsidies? Would Lincoln have thought the Patriot Act curbed civil liberties too much during war time?

It's pretty obvious he was referring to the Dixiefication of the Republican Party... 

We should have an equivalent thread asking whether Andrew Jackson and Grover Cleveland would recognize today's Democratic Party. 

[nkpatel1279]

How about a Republican President like Eisenhower or Ford?
The only former Republican Presidents that would support Romney-R or Santorum-R in the November General Election are Bush( both father and son), Reagan, and Nixon.

[TommyC1776]

How so? You think Teddy and Abe were more for abortions and gay marriage? Medicare part D and farm subsidies? Would Lincoln have thought the Patriot Act curbed civil liberties too much during war time?

It's pretty obvious he was referring to the Dixiefication of the Republican Party...  

We should have an equivalent thread asking whether Andrew Jackson and Grover Cleveland would recognize today's Democratic Party.  

Yeah.  That's what I meant.  Oh yeah a good thread about Jackson and Cleveland.  William Jennings Bryan was the beginning of the Democratic Party toward the left.  agree?  He was for a woman's right to vote.

[tpfkaw]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

[TommyC1776]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

Abraham Lincoln fought for black rights.  Today's Republicans wouldn't support such a thing as they want government off everything.  Lincoln put soldiers in the South to make sure blacks could vote.  Regarding today's equal rights for gays and lesbians Lincoln would go with the Democrats probably.  Today's Republicans hate gays and lesbians (a majority do anyways it seems).  Wouldn't you consider Lincoln a Rockefeller Republican (aka liberal to moderate Republican)?

[ajb]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

Lincoln wasn't as keen on states' rights as current Republicans seem to be.

[tpfkaw]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

Abraham Lincoln fought for black rights.  Today's Republicans wouldn't support such a thing as they want government off everything.  Lincoln put soldiers in the South to make sure blacks could vote.  Regarding today's equal rights for gays and lesbians Lincoln would go with the Democrats probably.  Today's Republicans hate gays and lesbians (a majority do anyways it seems).  Wouldn't you consider Lincoln a Rockefeller Republican (aka liberal to moderate Republican)?

Um, Abraham Lincoln was an extremely conservative evangelical Protestant, as was the Republican party's base in the 1850-1860s.  There's absolutely zero chance he supported anything like the modern conception of gay rights.  He also supported the bill in the Illinois legislature to ban free blacks from settling in Illinois and supported "colonizing" all blacks in Liberia his entire life, viewpoints which go well beyond anything found in the Republican party and which one would have to look to the American Nazi Party or similar organizations to find nowadays.

[Negusa Nagast 🚀]

How so? You think Teddy and Abe were more for abortions and gay marriage? Medicare part D and farm subsidies? Would Lincoln have thought the Patriot Act curbed civil liberties too much during war time?

It's pretty obvious he was referring to the Dixiefication of the Republican Party...  

We should have an equivalent thread asking whether Andrew Jackson and Grover Cleveland would recognize today's Democratic Party.  

Yeah.  That's what I meant.  Oh yeah a good thread about Jackson and Cleveland.  William Jennings Bryan was the beginning of the Democratic Party toward the left.  agree?  He was for a woman's right to vote.

Economically, yes. He brought the Populist plank onto the Democratic platform.

While he is from Nebraska, I imagine he'd be close to a Dixiecrat (or a Blue Dog) today.

[TommyC1776]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

Abraham Lincoln fought for black rights.  Today's Republicans wouldn't support such a thing as they want government off everything.  Lincoln put soldiers in the South to make sure blacks could vote.  Regarding today's equal rights for gays and lesbians Lincoln would go with the Democrats probably.  Today's Republicans hate gays and lesbians (a majority do anyways it seems).  Wouldn't you consider Lincoln a Rockefeller Republican (aka liberal to moderate Republican)?

Um, Abraham Lincoln was an extremely conservative evangelical Protestant, as was the Republican party's base in the 1850-1860s.  There's absolutely zero chance he supported anything like the modern conception of gay rights.  He also supported the bill in the Illinois legislature to ban free blacks from settling in Illinois and supported "colonizing" all blacks in Liberia his entire life, viewpoints which go well beyond anything found in the Republican party and which one would have to look to the American Nazi Party or similar organizations to find nowadays.

I thought Lincoln wasn't for states rights.

[tpfkaw]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

Abraham Lincoln fought for black rights.  Today's Republicans wouldn't support such a thing as they want government off everything.  Lincoln put soldiers in the South to make sure blacks could vote.  Regarding today's equal rights for gays and lesbians Lincoln would go with the Democrats probably.  Today's Republicans hate gays and lesbians (a majority do anyways it seems).  Wouldn't you consider Lincoln a Rockefeller Republican (aka liberal to moderate Republican)?

Um, Abraham Lincoln was an extremely conservative evangelical Protestant, as was the Republican party's base in the 1850-1860s.  There's absolutely zero chance he supported anything like the modern conception of gay rights.  He also supported the bill in the Illinois legislature to ban free blacks from settling in Illinois and supported "colonizing" all blacks in Liberia his entire life, viewpoints which go well beyond anything found in the Republican party and which one would have to look to the American Nazi Party or similar organizations to find nowadays.

I thought Lincoln wasn't for states rights.

Once again, he was for more states' rights than the modern Republican party.

You'd have to go to at least the 1900s or so until you could find politicians who would not be considered not only conservative but extremely conservative nowadays.

[Negusa Nagast 🚀]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

Abraham Lincoln fought for black rights.  Today's Republicans wouldn't support such a thing as they want government off everything.  Lincoln put soldiers in the South to make sure blacks could vote.  Regarding today's equal rights for gays and lesbians Lincoln would go with the Democrats probably.  Today's Republicans hate gays and lesbians (a majority do anyways it seems).  Wouldn't you consider Lincoln a Rockefeller Republican (aka liberal to moderate Republican)?

Um, Abraham Lincoln was an extremely conservative evangelical Protestant, as was the Republican party's base in the 1850-1860s.  There's absolutely zero chance he supported anything like the modern conception of gay rights.  He also supported the bill in the Illinois legislature to ban free blacks from settling in Illinois and supported "colonizing" all blacks in Liberia his entire life, viewpoints which go well beyond anything found in the Republican party and which one would have to look to the American Nazi Party or similar organizations to find nowadays.

If you apply modern social views to any politician from around ~1920 and before, I think more than 90% of Democrats and Republicans would come off as Conservatives, wouldn't you agree?

You have to look at the politicians in the context of their time periods and apply the bigger concepts of the time. Did he support government intervention in the economy? Yes, with greenbacks. Did he fight progressively for the social cause of his era (black freedom)? Yes, with the Emancipation Proclimation and 13th Amendment.

The Republican Party of today tends to fight to reverse social change (or at least maintain the status quo), and fight government intervention in the economy. It appears Lincoln failed those two precious tests.

[TommyC1776]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

Abraham Lincoln fought for black rights.  Today's Republicans wouldn't support such a thing as they want government off everything.  Lincoln put soldiers in the South to make sure blacks could vote.  Regarding today's equal rights for gays and lesbians Lincoln would go with the Democrats probably.  Today's Republicans hate gays and lesbians (a majority do anyways it seems).  Wouldn't you consider Lincoln a Rockefeller Republican (aka liberal to moderate Republican)?

Um, Abraham Lincoln was an extremely conservative evangelical Protestant, as was the Republican party's base in the 1850-1860s.  There's absolutely zero chance he supported anything like the modern conception of gay rights.  He also supported the bill in the Illinois legislature to ban free blacks from settling in Illinois and supported "colonizing" all blacks in Liberia his entire life, viewpoints which go well beyond anything found in the Republican party and which one would have to look to the American Nazi Party or similar organizations to find nowadays.

If you apply modern social views to any politician from around ~1920 and before, I think more than 90% of Democrats and Republicans would come off as Conservatives, wouldn't you agree?

You have to look at the politicians in the context of their time periods and apply the bigger concepts of the time. Did he support government intervention in the economy? Yes, with greenbacks. Did he fight progressively for the social cause of his era (black freedom)? Yes, with the Emancipation Proclimation and 13th Amendment.

The Republican Party of today tends to fight to reverse social change (or at least maintain the status quo), and fight government intervention in the economy. It appears Lincoln failed those two precious tests.

I see where your coming from as far as 90% of politicians (Dems and Reps) would be conservative on today's social issues.

[Negusa Nagast 🚀]

The original Republicans would likely still be Republicans today, while the original Democrats almost certainly would want nothing to do with the present Democratic party.

Abraham Lincoln fought for black rights.  Today's Republicans wouldn't support such a thing as they want government off everything.  Lincoln put soldiers in the South to make sure blacks could vote.  Regarding today's equal rights for gays and lesbians Lincoln would go with the Democrats probably.  Today's Republicans hate gays and lesbians (a majority do anyways it seems).  Wouldn't you consider Lincoln a Rockefeller Republican (aka liberal to moderate Republican)?

Um, Abraham Lincoln was an extremely conservative evangelical Protestant, as was the Republican party's base in the 1850-1860s.  There's absolutely zero chance he supported anything like the modern conception of gay rights.  He also supported the bill in the Illinois legislature to ban free blacks from settling in Illinois and supported "colonizing" all blacks in Liberia his entire life, viewpoints which go well beyond anything found in the Republican party and which one would have to look to the American Nazi Party or similar organizations to find nowadays.

If you apply modern social views to any politician from around ~1920 and before, I think more than 90% of Democrats and Republicans would come off as Conservatives, wouldn't you agree?

You have to look at the politicians in the context of their time periods and apply the bigger concepts of the time. Did he support government intervention in the economy? Yes, with greenbacks. Did he fight progressively for the social cause of his era (black freedom)? Yes, with the Emancipation Proclimation and 13th Amendment.

The Republican Party of today tends to fight to reverse social change (or at least maintain the status quo), and fight government intervention in the economy. It appears Lincoln failed those two precious tests.

I see where your coming from as far as 90% of politicians (Dems and Reps) would be conservative on today's social issues.

90% on Eugenics maybe . The issues of Abortion, Woman's Rights, Gay Rights, etc. have pretty divided opinions on the contemporary political scene. As you wind back the years you'll find more and more opposition to those topics and see a more "conservative" viewpoint (in the modern sense) develop and slip farther and farther right.

[King]

The future shock would kill them before they even gave one thought to the state of the Republican Party.

[tpfkaw]

We're not talking about the modern equivalent of Abraham Lincoln, we're talking about Abraham Lincoln himself.  Even in the case of a modern equivalent, however, I still find it doubtful he'd be a Democrat, considering that you're somewhat cherry-picking the social causes (he wasn't terribly "progressive" on immigration, or alcohol prohibition, or women's rights, and even on slavery he promoted the Corwin Amendment in his first inaugural address - his later actions were more about punishing the south for seceding than deeply held views about emancipation), and his views on economics were hardly "left" even by the day's standards; he openly acknowledged that his interventions in the economy were on the behalf of manufacturing and banking interests (which they in fact were).  Here's a sample quote of his on economics; which sounds rather more "Republican" than "Democratic":

"Property is the fruit of labor - property is desirable - it is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich, shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence."

[Cory]

I don't know about Lincoln, but Teddy by today's standards is most definitely a leftist, at least economically.

[So rightwing that I broke the Political Compass!]

I see where your coming from as far as 90% of politicians (Dems and Reps) would be conservative on today's social issues.

More like 100%

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I think it's pretty obvious that Lincoln would not be a Republican if he was alive today.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[tpfkaw]

Sorry, that's a fake quote. http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln.asp

[J. J.]

I seriously doubt if Lincoln would have recognized TR's Republican Party.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It's worth mentioning that the 'progressive' positions on eugenics and prohibition in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries weren't necessarily what you'd think, because those are some of the few social issues historically that the 'conservative' side eventually more or less won out on (although you can make an argument for the temperance movement having successfully changed the culture in ways not really related to prohibition as a political project).

[minionofmidas]

Would Lincoln have thought the Patriot Act curbed civil liberties too much during war time?

If you want to call this "war time", the answer is certainly "yes". But then, no one in their right mind would. No one ever thought of doing anything of the sort for any of America's many previous foreign interventions, and even in the Indian wars they restricted only the Indians' rights.

Apart from that, King is right.

[Mechaman]

I think a good deal of people in this thread are dealing with idealistic thinking of the past.  The Republican Party of the 19th Century, with the exception of freeing the slaves and opposing Jim Crow, was no bleedingheart liberal party.  They were simply "not as ugly" on certain issues as the Democrats.  And I would even argue that on other issues, like immigration and trade, they were even more ugly than Democrats.
This generation's GOP supports spending like a drunken sailor....at least when there's a Republican President.  Lincoln and Roosevelt both supported increased spending to some extent.  This generation's GOP is very xenophobic......as was the GOP of Lincoln and Roosevelt's time (the adoption of xenophobia into the movement allowed the 1920's KKK to gain a lot of it's strength from midwest Republicans).  I will exclude Lincoln from this next comparison, given that he was in the middle of a friggin war, but Roosevelt's GOP seemed to be fine with excessive military expenditures just like today's GOP has a zeal to oppose anything that calls for a reduction in military spending.

So yeah, I think Lincoln and Roosevelt would recognize the Republican Party.  Sure, a few things like trade would seem very different to them, but the overall mentality of the group (fiscal nonconservatism, nativism, and a huge military) would make them feel at home.