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Author Topic: Supreme Court and the Individual Health Insurance Mandate  (Read 45229 times)
Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #200 on: June 28, 2012, 05:12:42 pm »
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I'm withholding my opinions until I read through it.  Which could take a while.
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« Reply #201 on: June 28, 2012, 05:19:27 pm »
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I thought that the Supreme Court wasn't allowed to rule on whether a tax is constitutional until it takes effect? If the mandate is a tax than shouldn't the suit have been dismissed and need to be reargued in a couple years?

Ah, there is a distinction (the reasoning isn't mine, of course - I am not clever enough). The constitutionality is decided based on what this truly is, ignoring the labeling the Congress chooses to provide - a tax. But the prohibition on ruling pro/contra constitutionality of taxes not yet in effect is based on a statute and the Congress can choose to word the statute as it likes. It prohibited ruling on constitutionality not of taxes, but only of things it chooses to call taxes. Hence, this is a tax for the purposes of a constitutional argument, but not a tax for the purposes of this particular statute Smiley
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« Reply #202 on: June 28, 2012, 07:49:05 pm »
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I was reading today that premiums for those aged 18-34 will rise the most, with modest increase for those from 35-55....didn't mention anything about those older though. There is certainly a cross subsidy from the young to the old but I think it is necessary to keep the system afloat. Also prices need to be reduced overall somehow....
So the community rating isn't modified for age?  In that case, there's no telling whether young people with pre-existing conditions will end up paying more or less than they are now. Well done, Congress.
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« Reply #203 on: June 28, 2012, 08:42:51 pm »
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Just finished reading all the opinions.  Man, Kennedy, Scalia, Alito and Thomas really take Roberts to task for his tax interpretation, without naming him.
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« Reply #204 on: June 28, 2012, 09:18:08 pm »
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I thought that the Supreme Court wasn't allowed to rule on whether a tax is constitutional until it takes effect? If the mandate is a tax than shouldn't the suit have been dismissed and need to be reargued in a couple years?

Ah, there is a distinction (the reasoning isn't mine, of course - I am not clever enough). The constitutionality is decided based on what this truly is, ignoring the labeling the Congress chooses to provide - a tax. But the prohibition on ruling pro/contra constitutionality of taxes not yet in effect is based on a statute and the Congress can choose to word the statute as it likes. It prohibited ruling on constitutionality not of taxes, but only of things it chooses to call taxes. Hence, this is a tax for the purposes of a constitutional argument, but not a tax for the purposes of this particular statute Smiley

Wow that was a total BS contradiction of calling it a "penalty" when applying the Anti-Injunction Act and a "tax" when considering the powers of congress. Until reading the decision I was under the impression that there was a legitimate reason for that distinction beyond basically Roberts felt like it.
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« Reply #205 on: June 28, 2012, 09:54:18 pm »
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Time to move to Canada. Not because we have universal healthcare, mind, but rather because Canada has universal healthcare that's actually universal healthcare.
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« Reply #206 on: June 29, 2012, 12:07:36 am »
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I'm so happy that on one day, one judge was able to make a decision that wasn't based on his/her politcal ideology. This is supposed to be how the system works. I know that liberals have also won key battles through unelected courts as well. Law is supposed to be made by elected officials.

Actually from what I've read in the opinion so far, it is very much about Robert's ideology. At his confirmation he stressed judicial restraint and opposed judicial activism. The opinion reflects that view in deferring to the legislature where he could.

*cough* Citizen's United *cough*
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« Reply #207 on: June 29, 2012, 01:51:29 am »
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I was reading today that premiums for those aged 18-34 will rise the most, with modest increase for those from 35-55....didn't mention anything about those older though. There is certainly a cross subsidy from the young to the old but I think it is necessary to keep the system afloat. Also prices need to be reduced overall somehow....
So the community rating isn't modified for age?  In that case, there's no telling whether young people with pre-existing conditions will end up paying more or less than they are now. Well done, Congress.

Of course there is some adjustment. But the young pay more than they otherwise would and the old pay less.
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« Reply #208 on: June 29, 2012, 05:26:39 am »
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I'm so happy that on one day, one judge was able to make a decision that wasn't based on his/her politcal ideology. This is supposed to be how the system works. I know that liberals have also won key battles through unelected courts as well. Law is supposed to be made by elected officials.

Actually from what I've read in the opinion so far, it is very much about Robert's ideology. At his confirmation he stressed judicial restraint and opposed judicial activism. The opinion reflects that view in deferring to the legislature where he could.

*cough* Citizen's United *cough*

SCOTUS had ruled for unlimited expenditures by an individual back in the 70's. When someone can explain how SCOTUS can distinguish between expenditures from an individual as opposed to a group of individuals of any size, then I can understand why CU is activism. Or do you suggest SCOTUS should have reversed on their holding for a right to association?
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« Reply #209 on: June 29, 2012, 08:17:21 am »
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'Taxed to Death' just seems to have a more relative meaning today. go figure...
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« Reply #210 on: June 29, 2012, 04:27:08 pm »
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'Taxed to Death' just seems to have a more relative meaning today. go figure...

Yeah, Americans are oppressed to death by taxes.  You should live in another country where even middle-class people pay far higher provincial and consumption taxes, and still live a decent life in exchange for the benefits they get in return, and see what you think then.
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« Reply #211 on: June 29, 2012, 05:12:01 pm »
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'Taxed to Death' just seems to have a more relative meaning today. go figure...

Yeah, Americans are oppressed to death by taxes.  You should live in another country where even middle-class people pay far higher provincial and consumption taxes, and still live a decent life in exchange for the benefits they get in return, and see what you think then.

 Would that be the one that's debt free, open borders and they're own military defending that decent life? It can't be the one(s) that just where promised another bail out today.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 05:21:34 pm by t_host1 »Logged

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« Reply #212 on: June 29, 2012, 05:50:42 pm »
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'Taxed to Death' just seems to have a more relative meaning today. go figure...

Yeah, Americans are oppressed to death by taxes.  You should live in another country where even middle-class people pay far higher provincial and consumption taxes, and still live a decent life in exchange for the benefits they get in return, and see what you think then.

 Would that be the one that's debt free, open borders and they're own military defending that decent life? It can't be the one(s) that just where promised another bail out today.

While I applaud your sliding into coherence (software update?), I must say I liked you better when it was actually impossible to understand what you were actually saying.
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« Reply #213 on: June 30, 2012, 02:42:19 pm »
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Would that be the one that's debt free, open borders and they're own military defending that decent life? It can't be the one(s) that just where promised another bail out today.

But now we're changing the subject and talking about spending decisions and how they're financed.  I'm talking about the oft-expressed political sentiment in America that, if there is any one thing that ruins our lives, it's taxes.  I certainly understand that upward adjustment of tax rates makes things harder for businesses.  But I've had family members run businesses and worked in one of them when I was younger, and of the ones that failed, taxes, even when they were much higher than they are now, really weren't the death blow, not even close to it.  I'm saying that, once one factors everything in, Americans pay far less in taxes than most other citizens do in a vast majority of industrialized countries.  But we also seem to complain more bitterly about taxes than almost anyone else.     
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« Reply #214 on: June 30, 2012, 03:07:00 pm »
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Would that be the one that's debt free, open borders and they're own military defending that decent life? It can't be the one(s) that just where promised another bail out today.

But now we're changing the subject and talking about spending decisions and how they're financed.  I'm talking about the oft-expressed political sentiment in America that, if there is any one thing that ruins our lives, it's taxes.  I certainly understand that upward adjustment of tax rates makes things harder for businesses.  But I've had family members run businesses and worked in one of them when I was younger, and of the ones that failed, taxes, even when they were much higher than they are now, really weren't the death blow, not even close to it.  I'm saying that, once one factors everything in, Americans pay far less in taxes than most other citizens do in a vast majority of industrialized countries.  But we also seem to complain more bitterly about taxes than almost anyone else.     

Welfare has become a dirty word because it's too strongly need based, IMO. If only a small fraction of the population (regularly) uses state services (directly...obviously everyone uses them a lot more often than they think), then it turns into an us vs. them mentality.

In more universal welfare states, many people use the state healthcare, go to university for free tuition, etc., and less people mind paying taxes because they know everyone profits from a well run welfare state.
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« Reply #215 on: July 01, 2012, 11:14:22 am »
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Would that be the one that's debt free, open borders and they're own military defending that decent life? It can't be the one(s) that just where promised another bail out today.

But now we're changing the subject and talking about spending decisions and how they're financed.  I'm talking about the oft-expressed political sentiment in America that, if there is any one thing that ruins our lives, it's taxes.  I certainly understand that upward adjustment of tax rates makes things harder for businesses.  But I've had family members run businesses and worked in one of them when I was younger, and of the ones that failed, taxes, even when they were much higher than they are now, really weren't the death blow, not even close to it.  I'm saying that, once one factors everything in, Americans pay far less in taxes than most other citizens do in a vast majority of industrialized countries.  But we also seem to complain more bitterly about taxes than almost anyone else.    
The reason why Americans’ paid fewer taxes was because it had a vast land of opportunity to create wealth that, to which, many more people paid taxes, at a much lower rate. An example, let’s say you and a bunch of your buddies’ decide to go out to the pub as a group, each puts up first $20 for all expenses, the drunk and fat one fulfill their wants at a much better price than ones that primarily are enjoying the company of friends.  Enter Obama Care [Affordable Care Act], which does seem to have a unique meaning for my above example, back to my point, the difference with Obama care is; first, he is an uninvited quest who is insisting on being paid first for managing how and what you drink and eat tonight. Secondly, you must provide sufficient proof you need not provide more than the $20. Thirdly, the most relevant provision of ObamaCare, is, you must provide him and his staff (IRS, GSA…) for life, expenses and pensions, so to keep and maintain your next gathering.
Anvi, as to your decent life; is that the one that is given and allowed or the one that is purposely pursued to fulfill or not?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 12:56:37 pm by t_host1 »Logged

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« Reply #216 on: July 01, 2012, 04:15:21 pm »
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Good luck with the above anvi. It will be interesting to see how you respond.  Tongue
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« Reply #217 on: July 01, 2012, 05:01:50 pm »
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noting that Ginsburg doesn't rely on the law so much.  only uses it to set the state for delving into what's reasonable.  FF.
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« Reply #218 on: July 07, 2012, 03:00:12 pm »
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Good luck with the above anvi. It will be interesting to see how you respond.  Tongue

I haven't looked at this board for about a week and just saw the reply above.  So, Torie, are you daring me?  Smiley  Well, I'll probably fail, but I can't just leave an emoticon like that stand there.

First, t_host1, if you agreed with your buddies that you would put up $20 for everyone's initial expenses, but when you got to the bar and decided not to drink yourself, would you ask for your money back just because your friends were doing the drinking?  If that's so, I don't think anyone else will have to have make up rules for your future drinking parties; you're buddies will stop asking you to come along pretty soon.
Secondly, is Obama really an uninvited guest who is insisting on managing your habits?  In 2008, he got almost 70 million invitations from your other drinking buddies do to administrative work. If you and they want to un-invite him in November, that's totally fine.  But if someone hired you and then told you you weren't ever hired in the first place, I'd say it was the guy doing the hiring that was being unfair.
As far as the last part of your analogy with paying Obama's pension, looks to me like that's done when you go to bar too!  Maybe go to a volunteer bar, if you can find one.
I'm not sure what you're asking with your last question.  If it's a question about me, then...I got the gift of life from my parents.  And no matter how hard I work and purposely pursue happiness through my own efforts, I've always needed help from others.  If you're experience is different, then I'll wait to read your autobiography, because that would be quite unique.  If you're talking about debt-burdened countries instead, well, the U.S. is hardly in a position to point fingers.  The fact that we put so little in is related to how much we seek from others.
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« Reply #219 on: July 07, 2012, 03:29:14 pm »
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Well anvi, that was a most interesting discussion of mandatory cross subsidies (although your bit that you might not be invited to drink again if you don't drink and are the cross subsidizer, seemed a bit peculiar, since the idea is that the teetotaler must always go to drinking soirees precisely to cross subsidize, but I digress), and the cost and personnel to administer them. Good job with your handling of that last sentence from your interlocutor. That one really through me for a loop, because it seemed to have been dropped there from outer space from a contextual perspective.
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« Reply #220 on: July 07, 2012, 03:47:25 pm »
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Torie, I didn't address cross-subsidization in my response above just because I couldn't find anything in t_host1's post about it, although maybe I missed it. I thought it had drifted into a more general debate about taxes, so that's what I was focusing on.   I do think the cross-subsidization issue you've raised for a while is a legit one, and one way or another it will have to be rectified.  My interest in ACA as a matter of law before SCOTUS was that I wanted to see a mandate, or something that functions like one, survive constitutional challenges, and that not for the sake of Obamacare itself, but for the sake of implementing a viable framework for near-univeral coverage in our country at some point. 
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« Reply #221 on: July 07, 2012, 03:53:30 pm »
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Torie, I didn't address cross-subsidization in my response above just because I couldn't find anything in t_host1's post about it, although maybe I missed it. I thought it had drifted into a more general debate about taxes, so that's what I was focusing on.   I do think the cross-subsidization issue you've raised for a while is a legit one, and one way or another it will have to be rectified.  My interest in ACA as a matter of law before SCOTUS was that I wanted to see a mandate, or something that functions like one, survive constitutional challenges, and that not for the sake of Obamacare itself, but for the sake of implementing a viable framework for near-univeral coverage in our country at some point. 

Well, if you put in $20 bucks for booze, and then don't drink, that to me is a subsidy. But the fun of course was trying to parse a text written in code. You manned up and made a good faith effort. I read the text, and reached for my bong. Smiley

As to the mandate, of course the problem is that it is too small, and not enforced, so "everybody" is going to drop their insurance ASAP who is healthy, since now they get insurance any time they want it when they get sick. That is what happens when you troll for votes desperately at the last moment. You end up with a Godzilla-like monster that will be wrecking havoc throughout the land if not brought down.
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« Reply #222 on: July 07, 2012, 03:58:47 pm »
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I agree with your criticisms in the last paragraph, Torie.  As to the text, yeah, it was fun to read, though I'm not sure if I did all the decoding correctly.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 08:27:29 pm by anvi »Logged

"Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined."  Frederick Douglass
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« Reply #223 on: July 09, 2012, 09:44:07 am »
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Good luck with the above anvi. It will be interesting to see how you respond.  Tongue

I haven't looked at this board for about a week and just saw the reply above.  So, Torie, are you daring me?  Smiley  Well, I'll probably fail, but I can't just leave an emoticon like that stand there.

First, t_host1, if you agreed with your buddies that you would put up $20 for everyone's initial expenses, but when you got to the bar and decided not to drink yourself, would you ask for your money back just because your friends were doing the drinking?  If that's so, I don't think anyone else will have to have make up rules for your future drinking parties; you're buddies will stop asking you to come along pretty soon.
Secondly, is Obama really an uninvited guest who is insisting on managing your habits?  In 2008, he got almost 70 million invitations from your other drinking buddies do to administrative work. If you and they want to un-invite him in November, that's totally fine.  But if someone hired you and then told you you weren't ever hired in the first place, I'd say it was the guy doing the hiring that was being unfair.
As far as the last part of your analogy with paying Obama's pension, looks to me like that's done when you go to bar too!  Maybe go to a volunteer bar, if you can find one.
I'm not sure what you're asking with your last question.  If it's a question about me, then...I got the gift of life from my parents.  And no matter how hard I work and purposely pursue happiness through my own efforts, I've always needed help from others.  If you're experience is different, then I'll wait to read your autobiography, because that would be quite unique.  If you're talking about debt-burdened countries instead, well, the U.S. is hardly in a position to point fingers.  The fact that we put so little in is related to how much we seek from others.

Anvi, I was not required (mandated) to go to the pub or pay the $20. And, it’s not initial, expectations are known to be limited and fixed-(a separate and detailed discussion). Your point to ones character among friends and foe; we, are different.  I may be out numbered by those that want to aggrandize my health and aspirations for its constitutional order has diseased. Submission will always be resisted; it is the only medicine that works every time.
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