Santorum tells Puerto Ricans to speak English if they want to be a state. (user search)
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  Santorum tells Puerto Ricans to speak English if they want to be a state. (search mode)
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Author Topic: Santorum tells Puerto Ricans to speak English if they want to be a state.  (Read 8193 times)
Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« on: March 14, 2012, 04:50:45 PM »

I'm actually in disagreement with him here.

There is nothing in the constitution requiring the official language of the United States being English. If he wants this to be de-jure, it needs to be brought forth in the United States.

That being said:

English is the de-facto language of the United States - anyone who wants to change this needs to go somewhere else. Everyone who wants to be an American citizen needs to show english proficiency.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2012, 05:53:21 PM »

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Yes, that includes the people of Puerto Rico. Same for any and all American citizens.

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If they want to speak spanish and not English? There are plenty of spanish speaking countries where Spanish is an official language.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2012, 05:55:31 PM »

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I believe the Puerto Rican government uses both unofficially. Officially they are a US territory, which means de-facto requirement to use English.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2012, 05:57:48 PM »

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Says the Canadian. Did you look that up in wikipedia?

You do know that Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly English speaking, right?
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2012, 06:08:21 PM »

I'm seeing about 48 percent that speak English fluently as of 2005, and more that are familiar with English on top of that.

Yes, most speak Spanish as a first language, but English as a second is also very common in Puerto Rico. 
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2012, 06:16:30 PM »

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And how is that different from my statement that Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly English speaking?
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 06:18:31 PM »

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Did I say that it was overwhelmingly native English speaking?

No, I simply said that it was overwhelmingly English speaking, which the survey shows to be the case.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 06:26:15 PM »
« Edited: March 14, 2012, 06:30:04 PM by Ben Kenobi »

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And the fact that 100 percent (as according to your survey), do in fact speak some English?

Read it again.

It gives percentages for 'very well' and 'less than very well'.

The survey doesn't actually tell you how many Puerto Ricans do not speak English.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 06:39:43 PM »

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Supremacy clause + Territorial clause.

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So while Puerto Rico can pass bills, any conflict between them and the US constitution goes to the US constitution. Puerto Rico is required to use english in any communication between them and the US. They are permitted to use Spanish within Puerto Rico, but not for any communication outside of Puerto Rico.

They also can't make it Spanish only for the same reason. Anything that conflicts rules in favor of the US Constitution.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 06:42:32 PM »

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Your own table does not give figures for 'uses no English'. Ergo, it assumes that there is 100 percent English usage in Puerto Rico.

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Nor can it demonstrate that fewer than 100 percent do, in fact speak English. See my point? You can't determine anything at all from how they worded that question in their survey.

It's completely useless.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2012, 06:49:14 PM »

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Yeah, and? English is spoken quite well by non-native folks, especially the Dutch.

If your point is that they speak English as well as the Dutch, that's not really helping your case.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2012, 06:53:03 PM »

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Privileges and Immunities. US Citizens in Puerto Rico have the right to use English, just as they do everywhere else. Puerto Rico can't tell Americans from other parts of the US that they cannot reside there, and those residents (as well as native residents in Puerto Rico), have the same rights to access to government services in English as they have elsewhere in the US.

This is why this was changed back to English + Spanish.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 07:06:03 PM »

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Louisiana's debates would be helpful here. I'll see if I can find them.  
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2012, 07:08:57 PM »
« Edited: March 14, 2012, 07:11:05 PM by Ben Kenobi »

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What assertion did I make that was incorrect?

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Did I say anything concerning the percentage of Spanish speakers in PR. You seem to assume that someone who speaks english cannot speak Spanish. All I am saying is that a vast majority of Puerto Ricans have the ability to understand and communicate to some degree of fluency in English as well as Spanish.

You've jumped all over me here with your assumptions without taking the time to realize that I am in fact correct here.

Now, if you want to continue this discussion, I'm happy to, but you've not correctly understood my assertion.

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Actually, your 'survey' never employs the use of the word poor. I'm not sure how you conclude from your survey that their use of English is poor.  

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I'm not sure what his opinion is, this is the first I've heard Santorum's argument.

As I said earlier, I disagree with making English de jure the language of the United States.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2012, 07:16:28 PM »

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From what I can see the 1991 legislation in Puerto Rico only applied to native Puerto Rican residents, not to American Citizens from elsewhere. So it wouldn't have stripped the English language rights for the folks who speak English who weren't from Puerto Rico.

And it's moot anyways, because the policy is gone and has been the same as it's been for the last 50 years.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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United States


« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2012, 07:28:07 PM »

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What is my definition?

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Where did I say 20 percent of the population being native speakers of the language made them 'overwhelmingly spanish speaking'?

I'd like to see where I see me use that number anywhere.

I'm actually discussing English as a second language in Puerto Rico as justification for my statement that Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly English speaking.

Now, if you can show me anywhere close to 80 percent of Americans speaking Spanish as a first or second language, I'd be happy to say the same for America in general.

Have at it.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2012, 09:30:25 PM »

TM - isn't that why you're a Romney supporter?

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Yeah, which is why the law there is instructive. English is official in LA.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2012, 09:44:38 PM »

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So IOW there are official languages one of which is English. Thanks JJ.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2012, 10:13:57 PM »

There you go folks. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2012, 10:14:44 PM »

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Ah, that would be because I specified de jure in my post...
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2012, 11:24:56 PM »

If I had specified de jure I would think I would have said de jure. This is fun.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2012, 11:45:21 PM »

How did you divine the de jure, de facto distinction?
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2012, 02:58:49 PM »

People are aware that the party that is republican overwhelmingly trashed the '91 law?

This isn't the democrat primary, people.
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2012, 04:45:11 PM »

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My anecdotal evidence suggests precisely the opposite. Are you gaging it by what they choose to do among themselves, or what they use when working with an English speaker?
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Wisconsin+17
Ben Kenobi
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 6,134
United States


« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2012, 04:46:11 PM »

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50x as many Puerto Ricans support statehood over independence.
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