Protesters rally over Florida teen's death, demand arrest
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  Protesters rally over Florida teen's death, demand arrest
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Author Topic: Protesters rally over Florida teen's death, demand arrest  (Read 18000 times)
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2012, 02:01:04 PM »

Right. It's SYG in a public place that was new about this law, and part of what will be adjudicated, I imagine, as well as whether or not Zimmerman was, in fact, acting in self-defense as he claims.

Duty to retreat's other purpose is, of course, to protect the public from rumbles and gunfights. It can be argued whether or not it does so.
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J. J.
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« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2012, 02:22:11 PM »

Martin was 6' 3"...and 140 lbs.  That's incredibly scrawny for that height (I weigh 135 and I'm a full 8 inches shorter than Martin, and I'm pretty scrawny).  Zimmerman, despite being shorter, weighs close to 100 lbs more than Martin.  And you expect me to believe that Martin could beat Zimmerman up and knock him to the ground easily?  With that kind of weight disparity and what it implies about Martin's physique?

Do I think a young 140 lbs. man could jump a man 100 lbs. heavier from behind, at night?  Sure.
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Beet
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« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2012, 02:37:03 PM »

Apparently there have been conflicting reports of what Zimmerman's account is. I'm not sure if this is because Zimmerman himself was inconsistent or if the facts that were leaked to the media simply have been misleading. But the latest I have read is not that Zimmermain claims he was jumped from behind... he claims that Martin walked up to him from behind and asked him if he had a problem with him, or something to that effect. Martin's girlfriend's story would fit into this more latter account. If they exchanged words, then no one was jumped from behind.
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J. J.
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« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2012, 04:47:31 PM »

Apparently there have been conflicting reports of what Zimmerman's account is. I'm not sure if this is because Zimmerman himself was inconsistent or if the facts that were leaked to the media simply have been misleading. But the latest I have read is not that Zimmermain claims he was jumped from behind... he claims that Martin walked up to him from behind and asked him if he had a problem with him, or something to that effect. Martin's girlfriend's story would fit into this more latter account. If they exchanged words, then no one was jumped from behind.

Jumped was my characterization, but an attack that Zimmerman would be expecting, from behind, could be the case as well.  I am somewhat troubled by the wound on the back of Zimmerman's head.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2012, 04:50:59 PM »
« Edited: March 27, 2012, 04:52:54 PM by The Mikado »

Apparently there have been conflicting reports of what Zimmerman's account is. I'm not sure if this is because Zimmerman himself was inconsistent or if the facts that were leaked to the media simply have been misleading. But the latest I have read is not that Zimmermain claims he was jumped from behind... he claims that Martin walked up to him from behind and asked him if he had a problem with him, or something to that effect. Martin's girlfriend's story would fit into this more latter account. If they exchanged words, then no one was jumped from behind.

Jumped was my characterization, but an attack that Zimmerman would be expecting, from behind, could be the case as well.  I am somewhat troubled by the wound on the back of Zimmerman's head.

Wouldn't it fit with the broken nose if Martin punched him in the face, knocking him over so his head hit the pavement?  Followed by Zimmerman firing?  Which would still be voluntary manslaughter because he's using lethal force in "self-defense" in a situation where his life isn't actually in danger.

EDIT: especially because Zimmerman was previously following Martin around, as both the 911 call and the story Martin's girlfriend says show.  Zimmerman's actions provoked a confrontation that led to Zimmerman getting knocked over and shooting Martin, is my current impression. 
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J. J.
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« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2012, 05:00:17 PM »



Wouldn't it fit with the broken nose if Martin punched him in the face, knocking him over so his head hit the pavement?  Followed by Zimmerman firing?  

Suppose Zimmerman broke it when he hit the ground, hypothetically?  There are a lot of possibilities.


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Well, no, because he had a belief that his life was endangered, under your scenario.  Zimmerman's action might be provocative, but they didn't justify Martin turning, approaching and punching him.
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DrScholl
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« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2012, 05:54:08 PM »

Zimmerman's story didn't add up and one investigator wanted to charge him the night of the shooting.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3JEgPkU6So

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Badger
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« Reply #107 on: March 27, 2012, 06:20:37 PM »

The greatest criminal here is the FL legislature for passing such an idiotic law and opening the floodgates of bogus "self-defense" claims. Self-defense was permissable before, but this law is the definition of "unintended consequences".
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Beet
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« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2012, 06:29:50 PM »

The greatest criminal here is the FL legislature for passing such an idiotic law and opening the floodgates of bogus "self-defense" claims. Self-defense was permissable before, but this law is the definition of "unintended consequences".

It's not just Florida. Although Florida was the first to enact it and it's been in effect for the longest there, between 17 and 24 states already have this enacted (depending on which report you listen to). If your state doesn't already have it, there's almost certainly someone trying to push it through. In Ohio, an effort is underway to enact this law and lobbyists were campaigning for it today. It's worth nothing that in Florida it was enacted over the objections of law enforcement and prosecutors, who feared exactly what is now happening.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2012, 12:06:51 AM »

Whereas we, of course, trust the judgment of wannabe cops with restraining orders against them from previous violent incidents who habitually make phone calls to the police about trivial sh**t.
46 phone calls over 8 years is not all that many.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2012, 02:30:43 AM »

How could Zimmerman be "standing his ground" in "self-defense" when he went off in pursuit of an unarmed teenager -- a decision which went against both what the 911 dispatcher told him and general neighborhood watch protocol?  In fact, neighborhood watch is not supposed to carry firearms.  This isn't even a case where Zimmerman saw Martin on his property.  He just decided he looked "suspicious" and now the result is a dead unarmed teenager.
He was not on a neighborhood watch, he was in his car when he saw Martin and called the police.  He had a CHL, and if you are going to carry, it makes sense to always carry.

He did not pursue Martin.  After Martin started running, he apparently was driving along a street, and the dispatcher asked if he were following Martin.  He said yes, the dispatcher said that "we don't need you to do that", to which Zimmerman responded "OK".

The phone call lasted another 1-1/2 minutes.  So either Zimmerman had stopped; the dispatcher thought he had stopped; or the dispatcher thought it wasn't that important.

He later got out of his car.
First off, whether Zimmerman was on official watch duty at the moment or not is not an excuse to break accepted neighborhood watch protocol.  He pursued a suspect with his gun, neither of which he should have done.  As a member of the neighborhood watch he should have been well aware of the proper procedure.  He is not a law enforcement officer.  
You claimed that Zimmerman should not have been carrying a gun since he was on neighborhood watch.  But he wasn't on neighborhood watch.  He was going to the store.  I seriously doubt that people involved in neighborhood watch are told not to report strange or suspicious activity that they observe when going to work or driving.

He did not pursue Martin.  It is your fantasy that the 250 pound 28 YO 5'9 guy outran the 6'0 160 pound 17 YO until he got close enough to shoot him at close range.

He saw someone who appeared to be walking about, just looking at houses, who fit the description of those who had committed burglaries in the area.  he called the police.  He gave them a description.  He said that Martin had started to run.

He was in his truck and he started to follow.  If the engine was running, he might just have put the truck into gear and been creeping along at 5 MPH.  The dispatcher somehow figured this out.  Maybe he can figure it out from the phone cells, maybe he could hear the engine running.  Maybe he was just intuitive.

The dispatch asked Zimmerman if he were following Martin.  Zimmerman immediately said "yeah", and when the dispatcher reminded that "we don't need you to do that".  Zimmerman immediately said "OK".

He did not pursue after being told not to.  To the contrary, he immediately acknowledged the recommendation.   The phone call continued for another 1-1/2, and there is no evidence that Martin remained in sight.

Either:

(1) Zimmerman stopped;

(2) Zimmerman continued to follow Martin and effectively fooled the dispatcher;

(3) Zimmerman continued to follow, the dispatcher knew it, but decided it was hopeless to try to get Zimmerman to stop;

(4) Zimmerman continued to follow, the dispatcher knew it, and wanted Zimmerman to do it.  The "order" to stop, was just to establish plausible deniability.

I vote for (1).  What about yourself.

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Kennard said the National Sheriff's Association does not have a record of the group registering as a Neighhborhood Watch Program (proper noun).  Kennard was acting as bureaucrat protecting his organization's trademarks.

The Sanford Police Department brochure:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/flyers/Neighborhood_Watch_english.pdf

doesn't say anything about registering with the Neighborhood Watch Program.  Sanford police did meet with the neighborhood watch group in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

Your statement that he did not pursue Martin is false.  Per the 911 tapes, he admitted he was in pursuit of Martin (the dispatcher asked if he was following Martin and he said "yeah").  When the 911 dispatcher told him to stop he said "okay" but I am skeptical that he actually stopped -- the continued sound of his heavy breathing suggests that wasn't the case.  And if he was not pursuing Martin, why did he get out of his car?  Furthermore, Zimmerman's account of events is contradicted by Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him at the time the shooting occurred:
"Pursue" is not the same as "follow".

The tape confirms that Zimmerman at least acknowledged that he was no longer following Martin; rather than the popular belief that he pursued Martin after being directed not to.  Agreed?

How did she know Martin was "cornered"?  You realize that this pursuit if carried out over at least 4 minutes was slow as molasses.  Did his girl friend call police after hearing her friend had been chased by a strange person, and then the call was disconnected after she heard shoving.  There is no contemporaneous account of her interpretation of events.

As for your apparent assertion that the Sanford Police conducted a fair investigation, I will respond to that later when I have time.  Needless to say I could not disagree more.
Remember that the two witnesses who were actually outside reported that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.
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dead0man
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« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2012, 08:16:20 AM »

Of course it is. Shooting to incapacitate is one of the funniest lines told by people who don't have a clue.

This is, in turn, one of the most sickening lines told by bloodthirsty wannabe-badasses, so at least I'm amusing.
He's actually correct.  It's a Hollywood myth, like cars exploding when shot or falling off a cliff.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2012, 08:56:10 AM »

Apparently his mother has filed to have his name trademarked this morning. I'm beginning to get tired of this case now, especially if the family is out to make money off of it.
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BigSkyBob
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« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2012, 10:51:23 AM »

The greatest criminal here is the FL legislature for passing such an idiotic law and opening the floodgates of bogus "self-defense" claims. Self-defense was permissable before, but this law is the definition of "unintended consequences".

This ignores the minor detail that Zimmerman's own attorney stated his defense has nothing to do with the "stand your ground" law. He noted Zimmerman acted in "self-defense."


Folks that don't like that law are abusing the facts in this circumstance to rally against it.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #114 on: March 28, 2012, 12:00:54 PM »

Of course it is. Shooting to incapacitate is one of the funniest lines told by people who don't have a clue.

This is, in turn, one of the most sickening lines told by bloodthirsty wannabe-badasses, so at least I'm amusing.
He's actually correct.  It's a Hollywood myth, like cars exploding when shot or falling off a cliff.

Well, clearly it's why you don't shoot.
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Beet
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« Reply #115 on: March 28, 2012, 09:39:25 PM »

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.
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Brittain33
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« Reply #116 on: March 28, 2012, 09:57:30 PM »

I'm confused. When people here were talking about his bloody face and broken news and hypothesizing that Martin knocked him to the ground and beat the crap out of him, what were they basing it on, if Zimmerman wasn't even bloody in the first place?
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LastVoter
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« Reply #117 on: March 28, 2012, 10:27:40 PM »

So what we are dealing here is legalization of manslaughter. I am hoping NRA will try to protect Zimmerman.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #118 on: March 28, 2012, 11:44:44 PM »

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.
Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car.  The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.
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Ogre Mage
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« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2012, 01:55:54 AM »
« Edited: March 29, 2012, 02:08:02 AM by Ogre Mage »

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"Pursue" is not the same as "follow?"  Whatever.  Well then he was "following" Martin.  And would any of this have happened if he had NOT "followed" Martin? (with a gun)

It is your conjecture that he followed the instructions of the dispatcher to stop looking for Martin.  Many would disagree with you.  Are you really assuming he did just because he "okay."  Hard to believe given that he got out of his car with his gun and the person he was following is now dead.
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Ogre Mage
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« Reply #120 on: March 29, 2012, 02:07:18 AM »

Zimmerman's father is now saying that Trayvon Martin threatened to kill his son:

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http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

Maybe it is just me, but I would wager this story is not true.
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Ogre Mage
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« Reply #121 on: March 29, 2012, 02:10:50 AM »
« Edited: March 29, 2012, 02:33:17 AM by Ogre Mage »

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.
Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car.  The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.

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http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html
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dead0man
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« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2012, 02:48:54 AM »

Elderly couple abandon their home after address is posted on Twitter as that of George Zimmerman
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Posting the REAL address would be wrong, posting the WRONG address is much much worse.  Spike Lee should be better than this.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2012, 09:57:02 AM »

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.
Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car.  The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.

Here's the video itself, for the lazy who don't want to search for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N5OiLQjUcOU#!
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Brittain33
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« Reply #124 on: March 29, 2012, 03:30:53 PM »

Some more bombshells from Zimmerman's father that buttresses jimrtex's and J.J.'s case against Trayvon. Note the text in bold below - it vindicates Zimmerman.

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Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/29/2720704/george-zimmermans-dad-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy
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