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Question: Will Iceland and Norway ever join the EU?
#1Iceland, but not Norway  
#2Norway, but not Iceland  
#3Both  
#4None of them  
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Total Voters: 153

Author Topic: The Great Nordic Thread  (Read 154185 times)
politicus
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« Reply #775 on: October 12, 2015, 04:18:15 pm »

Ingemann brings up a lot of good points

Being a bit self congratulating Smiley
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ingemann
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« Reply #776 on: October 12, 2015, 04:20:34 pm »


Damn I locked in with the wrong account;). It have been corrected.
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politicus
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« Reply #777 on: October 13, 2015, 10:20:19 am »

Former, hippie, horse trainer for spaghetti-Westerns and sheep consultant to Muammar Gadaffi Ibrahim Sverrir Agnarsson is no longer Chairman of the biggest Muslim association in Iceland Félag Muslima á Íslandi since he has been ousted by his predecessor and arch rival Palestinian restaurateur Salmann Tamimi. In a post on Facebook Agnarsson has accused the new chairman of wanting to guide the congregation in a less liberal direction regarding women and homosexuals.

Félag Muslima á Íslandi is the country's largest Muslim congregation. It has existed since 1997 and is thus considerably older than the upstart and more fundamentalist Menningarsetur Muslima á Íslandi, which was founded in 2009 and has 389 members.

Félag Muslima á Íslandi got a plot of Sogamýri in Reykjavík for the building of a mosque in 2013. The aim is that construction will begin in the spring. Now, however, it seems as if the whole process is in danger as Salmann Tamimi has rejected receiving a grant from Saudi Arabia calling it "a fascist state", while Agnarsson kept the door open for contributions of all who do not make it a condition to gain influence over the congregation focus.

Agnarsson has argued that it isn't Muslim women's duty to go with a veil and has also been accused of being too friendly towards homosexuals. He also supported Icelandic women in the congregation who wanted to remove the “cage” that women for the last ten years has got to be in during prayer due to lack of proper separation.

"I considered it right to go back to the order in Medina during the Prophet and the first four Caliphs days so that they could be the same place as men. This was not appreciated by the old grunts who sent out their ladies to protest against such indecency. This was the culture of fascism against healthy Islam untainted by machismo."

So it seems one of the last convert dominated congregations in Europe are being taken over by ethnic minorities, but the conflict goes beyond theology and relations to the Saudis (with the "liberal" converts ironically being less anti-Saudi) because Agnarson supports establishing separate Muslim schools, whereas Tamimi thinks this will harm integration. It is also disputable whether Agnarson is as gay friendly as he pretends, he has waffled a lot on this.
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Diouf
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« Reply #778 on: October 13, 2015, 12:54:57 pm »

The Danish MEP Rikke Karlsson has decided to leave the DPP. She says that the primary reason is that she was pushed to sign documents stating that she, among other things, had participated in meetings in the Euro-parties Movement for a Europe of Liberties and Democracy and Foundation for a Europe of Liberties and Democracy. However, she claims never to have participated in any meetings, and after several rejected requests of more information about these parties, she decided to leave.
It will of course be interesting to see whether the Eurosceptic DPP has in fact meddled with documents in order to collect as much money from the system as possible. This could create a minor backlash for the party. However, Karlsson's exit is also another damning indictment of Morten Messerschmidt's leader skills. In the previous term, the fellow DPP MEP Anna Rosbach left the party midway through the term after severe conflicts with him, and it is quite clearly a chemistry question this time as well. Messerschmidt is a very intelligent and charismatic politician, he led the DPP to a victory in the EP elections 2014 with the highest number of personal votes ever, but he is also extremely arrogant. His lacking leadership abilities might put into question his role as the heir apparent in the DPP. Not that Thulelsen Dahl is likely to leave anytime soon.
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politicus
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« Reply #779 on: October 13, 2015, 01:01:07 pm »

His lacking leadership abilities might put into question his role as the heir apparent in the DPP. Not that Thulelsen Dahl is likely to leave anytime soon.

He has no such status.
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politicus
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« Reply #780 on: October 13, 2015, 01:06:52 pm »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 04:59:47 pm by politicus »

Anyway, a bit lol that DPP have gotten their hands in the Euro-cookie jar and are fiddling with receipts, since they have campaigned so much against wasteful spending and abuse of funds.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #781 on: October 13, 2015, 01:08:33 pm »

Oh, they've pulled a UKIP?
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ingemann
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« Reply #782 on: October 13, 2015, 01:49:21 pm »

His lacking leadership abilities might put into question his role as the heir apparent in the DPP. Not that Thulelsen Dahl is likely to leave anytime soon.

He has no such status.

I agree

Personally I believe that Messerschmidt have been complete sidelined no matter how much they talk about him being part of party's leadership. From my read on him he's incredible intelligent, but he mix this with arrogance, risk taking, dishonesty (much more than the average politicians) and terrible leadership. It work in Danish group in the Europe Parliament, because he's the smartest guy there and no one know or cares enough about EU rules to call him out, but if he behaved the same way in a Danish national election, he would end being crushed by the veterans in the Folketing. Of course the leadership in DPP have had to reward him with a symbolic place in the leadership, because it would be a bigger history if he wasn't rewarded and because he's the only one who have the potential to break out of DPP if he's unhappy with the leadership. I personally think he would end up burning and crashing if he did that, but it would still be a problem for DPP.
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Diouf
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« Reply #783 on: October 13, 2015, 01:57:10 pm »

His lacking leadership abilities might put into question his role as the heir apparent in the DPP. Not that Thulelsen Dahl is likely to leave anytime soon.

He has no such status.

Well, he is the man behind the DPP's biggest victory ever, perhaps the most well-known and popular DPPer after Thulelsen Dahl and Kjærsgaard, he is a member of the DPP 4-man coordination committee, and he is such a charismatic speaker and influential figure that he often represents DPP in debates that has nothing to do with the EU at all.
I have a hard time seeing who else could be called the heir apparent in the DPP right now. I know that it could easily be ten years or more before Thulelsen Dahl resigns so other faces could easily emerge until then, but if you ask DPP members now who they imagine as leader after Thulelsen Dahl, I would think that a large majority would say Messerschmidt.
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politicus
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« Reply #784 on: October 13, 2015, 02:12:24 pm »

His lacking leadership abilities might put into question his role as the heir apparent in the DPP. Not that Thulelsen Dahl is likely to leave anytime soon.

He has no such status.

Well, he is the man behind the DPP's biggest victory ever, perhaps the most well-known and popular DPPer after Thulelsen Dahl and Kjærsgaard, he is a member of the DPP 4-man coordination committee, and he is such a charismatic speaker and influential figure that he often represents DPP in debates that has nothing to do with the EU at all.
I have a hard time seeing who else could be called the heir apparent in the DPP right now. I know that it could easily be ten years or more before Thulelsen Dahl resigns so other faces could easily emerge until then, but if you ask DPP members now who they imagine as leader after Thulelsen Dahl, I would think that a large majority would say Messerschmidt.

DPP is not run by its members and an heir would be appointed by the inner circle: Thulesen-Dahl, Søren Espersen, Peter Skaarup and chief of press Søren Søndergaard after consulting with Pia Kjærsgaard (who would probably still have the final word). Those people would never leave the party in the hands of someone like Messerschmidt, who in addition to the personal deficiencies Ingemann mentioned, is also too right wing and too prone to flirt with "extreme" positions, which would jeopardize the mainstreaming project (such as climate skepticism and a soft spot for Putin).
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ingemann
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« Reply #785 on: October 13, 2015, 02:24:30 pm »

There's also another aspect Thulesen Dahl are only 46 year old, Pia Kjærsgaard were 65 when she stopped as leader of the party. We can very well see Thulesen continue as leader of the party for the next twenty years. Especially if he planned to become PM at some point. Also twenty or even only ten years is a long time to be crown prince, especially if you're placed away from the centre of power. If DPP plan to use him as crown prince, a sign of this will be if he's allowed to return to Danish politics, he have talked about this several times, but he hasn't returned yet, which tell me that it's the leadership who want to keep him in EP.
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politicus
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« Reply #786 on: October 13, 2015, 02:37:45 pm »

One more Danish pol has dropped out of her party today. Former MP Trine Pertou Mach has left SPP, which she classifies as "too right wing" and still "in the shadow of SD on value politics".

Pertou Mach was considered the only realistic left wing challenger to Pia Olsen Dyhr in the leadership election after Vilhelmsen, but chose to abstain due to "personal reasons".

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Diouf
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« Reply #787 on: October 13, 2015, 02:44:56 pm »

His lacking leadership abilities might put into question his role as the heir apparent in the DPP. Not that Thulelsen Dahl is likely to leave anytime soon.

He has no such status.

Well, he is the man behind the DPP's biggest victory ever, perhaps the most well-known and popular DPPer after Thulelsen Dahl and Kjærsgaard, he is a member of the DPP 4-man coordination committee, and he is such a charismatic speaker and influential figure that he often represents DPP in debates that has nothing to do with the EU at all.
I have a hard time seeing who else could be called the heir apparent in the DPP right now. I know that it could easily be ten years or more before Thulelsen Dahl resigns so other faces could easily emerge until then, but if you ask DPP members now who they imagine as leader after Thulelsen Dahl, I would think that a large majority would say Messerschmidt.

DPP is not run by its members and an heir would be appointed by the inner circle: Thulesen-Dahl, Søren Espersen, Peter Skaarup and chief of press Søren Søndergaard after consulting with Pia Kjærsgaard (who would probably still have the final word). Those people would never leave the party in the hands of someone like Messerschmidt, who in addition to the personal deficiencies Ingemann mentioned, is also too right wing and too prone to flirt with "extreme" positions, which would jeopardize the mainstreaming project (such as climate skepticism and a soft spot for Putin).

Messerschmidt has made strides to become more mainstream in the party. He has changed from atheist and very right wing on economics to a classic DPP Christian Social Democrat.
As I have written already, there will probably not be a leadership election in the party any time soon and all kind of new faces could emerge, but the standard DPP members seem him as the logical heir right now.
You can run for leader with the support of 25 delegates, which Messerschmidt will probably always be able to get without a problem. He normally doesn't underestimate him self, so unless he was sure that he couldn't beat whichever candidate parts of the establishment would run with, then I couldn't see him backing down in such a situation.
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politicus
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« Reply #788 on: October 13, 2015, 03:01:00 pm »

His lacking leadership abilities might put into question his role as the heir apparent in the DPP. Not that Thulelsen Dahl is likely to leave anytime soon.

He has no such status.

Well, he is the man behind the DPP's biggest victory ever, perhaps the most well-known and popular DPPer after Thulelsen Dahl and Kjærsgaard, he is a member of the DPP 4-man coordination committee, and he is such a charismatic speaker and influential figure that he often represents DPP in debates that has nothing to do with the EU at all.
I have a hard time seeing who else could be called the heir apparent in the DPP right now. I know that it could easily be ten years or more before Thulelsen Dahl resigns so other faces could easily emerge until then, but if you ask DPP members now who they imagine as leader after Thulelsen Dahl, I would think that a large majority would say Messerschmidt.

DPP is not run by its members and an heir would be appointed by the inner circle: Thulesen-Dahl, Søren Espersen, Peter Skaarup and chief of press Søren Søndergaard after consulting with Pia Kjærsgaard (who would probably still have the final word). Those people would never leave the party in the hands of someone like Messerschmidt, who in addition to the personal deficiencies Ingemann mentioned, is also too right wing and too prone to flirt with "extreme" positions, which would jeopardize the mainstreaming project (such as climate skepticism and a soft spot for Putin).

Messerschmidt has made strides to become more mainstream in the party. He has changed from atheist and very right wing on economics to a classic DPP Christian Social Democrat.
As I have written already, there will probably not be a leadership election in the party any time soon and all kind of new faces could emerge, but the standard DPP members seem him as the logical heir right now.
You can run for leader with the support of 25 delegates, which Messerschmidt will probably always be able to get without a problem. He normally doesn't underestimate himself, so unless he was sure that he couldn't beat whichever candidate parts of the establishment would run with, then I couldn't see him backing down in such a situation.

While Messerschmidt is capable of playing the role as "Social Conservative" (what you call a "Christian Social Democrat") and a moderate I doubt he would be trusted as such by the people that matter.

Its a very top down party. A replacement for Thulesen-Dahl would be picked by the inner circle and presented as "the heir" I don't see a membership rebellion against this - the foot soldiers in DPP are used to obeying their leaders. If Messerschmidt tried to rebel he would be crushed + most of the former Social Democrats would distrust him as leader (even if they love him as EU-basher) and they make up a big chunk of the membership.
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politicus
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« Reply #789 on: October 13, 2015, 04:05:08 pm »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 04:27:14 pm by politicus »

To illustrate what kind of a party DPP is here are some points from an article in Danish conservative daily Berlingske in January:

- All new members are being checked by the party elite, before being approved. All previous criticism of the party is ground for refusal (as is any criticism of Israel).

- Despite advocating unlimited freedom of speech no member is allowed to criticize the party and the party leadership in public. All criticism must be kept behind closed doors.

- Kristian Thulesen Dahl's right hand, parliamentary group chairman Peter Skaarup, get lists of all new members for review and appoint people to be examined more closely by organizational consultant, Steen Thomsen and party secretary Poul Lindholm - known as “the membership police”.

- If you want to run for office a new screening process starts. You need to fill in an extensive form with name, picture, criminal record, which private interests you have, why you have chosen to go into politics, which letters to the media you have written over the years, how many annual conventions you have been to, and not least which of the party's many internal courses you have participated in. All this to ascertain the person's loyalty to the leadership.

- Then you will be invited for an interview with the party's election committee including Peter Skaarup, Søren Espersen, Carl Christian Ebbesen and Steen Thomsen. If doing well in the interview, you can join the so-called 'candidate database' of authorized persons from which local constituencies can choose candidates from.

- Control of the members is manifested also when they want to communicate on social media. The rank and file are warned against putting “ill-considered comments” on Facebook or twitter.

- Members have received warnings or are excluded solely because of their appearance on social media.

- The five member Executive Committee may expel members without having to justify this in any way.

As a former municipal councillor and Deputy Mayor puts it:
 “All the people who make up the party leadership or board of directors are in practice approved by the Executive Committee first. People have simply been told that the Executive Committee thinks it is a bad idea, if you run. I experienced this myself”

- If any internal disagreement or trouble happens in a local DF-association, the leadership interferes. Either Steen Thomsen or Poul Lindholm - or 'Poul Blood' as he is called internally - are inserted as a “conductor” at the meetings of local associations to ensure that everything goes as the leadership wants.

- The control of the hinterland is also reflected in a number of dictating e-mails from the leadership and the party's press chief Søren Søndergaard. Like orders not to comment on certain issues in the media - typically anything related to immigration or Islam.

Political scientists Lars Bille is quote for saying that the level of internal control in DPP is unheard of among Danish parties, but “what comes closest is probably the Danish Communist Party in its heyday and SPP in the beginning (the early 60s)”

Not the sort of party where a successful membership revolt is likely to occur… Even one started by a rebellious member of the leadership. I just don't  see it happening.
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politicus
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« Reply #790 on: October 13, 2015, 04:50:35 pm »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 04:57:47 pm by politicus »

After being ahead in the national polls for five months the Pirates are now also ahead in a Reykjavik municipal elections poll from Gallup, which is bad news for SDA because their strength in Reykjavik municipal politics is their last bastion and Mayor Dagur B. Eggertsson seen as a "saviour" by many (even if he was a flop as deputy leader back in the day). The Pirates only have one councillor in Reykjavik, anonymous Halldór Auðar Svansson, but are still gaining.

Pirates 27.5% (+21.6)
SDA 24.7 (-7.2)
IP 23.4 (-2.3)
Left Greens 11.0 (+2.7)
Bright Future 8.1 (-7.5)
PP 4.4 (-6.3)

There are currently 15 seats, but it will be increased to at least 23 next time. A 23 seat council would give:

Pirates: 7
SDA: 6
IP: 5
LG: 2
BF: 2
PP: 1

Reykjavik currently has a broad SDA, LG, BF, Pirates coalition, but if SDA (or IP) drops any further the three others could govern without them - which might be tempting as Reykjavik BF is fairly leftist and they could do more "activism" on human rights issues. Although the Pirates would need to come up with a qualified candidate for Mayor in this scenario. LG is very close to a third seat.
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politicus
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« Reply #791 on: October 13, 2015, 05:12:52 pm »

Rikke Karlsson is the niece of DPP Deputy Chairman Søren Espersen. So not an outsider. An interesting twist.
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« Reply #792 on: October 13, 2015, 06:14:54 pm »

Very interesting discussion Smiley Will Karlsson stay in ECR?
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politicus
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« Reply #793 on: October 13, 2015, 06:32:30 pm »
« Edited: October 13, 2015, 06:41:00 pm by politicus »

Very interesting discussion Smiley Will Karlsson stay in ECR?

Yes.

And Messerschmidt is furious because she is "sitting on his votes" (which is entirely correct).
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politicus
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« Reply #794 on: October 13, 2015, 07:07:45 pm »

There is also the aspect that it is bit strange why DPP is still a member of MELD. All the remaining member parties are very small and parties with no current MEPs, while the Finns Party and Lega Nord have left MELD.

Apart from DPP MELD currently includes:

REKOS from Austrian, the National Front for the Salvation of Bulgaria, the former Vlaams Belang leader Frank Vanhecke, the French MPF (de Villiers), LAOS, the Polish SP and the Slovak National Party.

So basically all loser parties, which makes you think that there is some economic advantage to this with better possibility of milking/manipulating the system without too much control, because politically it doesn't make sense for a well-established and strong party like DPP to "hang around" those losers.
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« Reply #795 on: October 14, 2015, 12:04:17 am »

To illustrate what kind of a party DPP is here are some points from an article in Danish conservative daily Berlingske in January:

I'm surprised nobody tried to move a law to impose real party democracy, to cripple them.
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ingemann
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« Reply #796 on: October 14, 2015, 05:00:25 am »

To illustrate what kind of a party DPP is here are some points from an article in Danish conservative daily Berlingske in January:

I'm surprised nobody tried to move a law to impose real party democracy, to cripple them.

First of all I'm not sure how you could do it legal, no one is forced to be member of DPP, so it's up to a non-profit member organisation itself how it organise itself. But even if you could do it create a dangerous precedence and the other parties may also be hurt by common rules for how to organised itself.
Also it would also create a rather ugly backlash when the other parties try to use legislation to "cripple" political opposition.
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politicus
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« Reply #797 on: October 14, 2015, 06:01:16 am »

Despite Danish parties getting government funding there is a strong tradition for seeing them solely as private associations entitled to organize themselves whichever way they want. The prevailing view is that disgruntled party members can just form a new party if the old one is too repressive. I don't see that changing. The idea of government regulation of how parties organize (apart from demanding proper accounts and audits etc.) is alien to Danish political culture.
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« Reply #798 on: October 14, 2015, 06:39:38 am »

Yeah, breaking with over 100 years of cross-national Nordic association law and established precedence to disadvantage a single organisation doesn't seem like a well-thought out idea.

Though the authoritarian, Soviet-like party structures of DPP in Denmark or SD in Sweden are rather frightening and says a whole lot about those parties, policy and legislation shouldn't be created around a single organisation.

In all of the Nordic countries (as far as I'm aware off) parties count as regular non-profit organisations, and non-profit organisations are in the Nordic countries free to organize any way they please. You'd either have to make parties a whole different group of organisations, or impose the same governing structure on all non-profit organisation, which would be greatly problematic in relation to churches with distinct leadership organisation, orders, and so on.

Besides, do we even want these parties to allow crazy grass-rots take over their party. I'm not sure how that would actually be beneficial to anyone.
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« Reply #799 on: October 14, 2015, 07:14:08 am »

Though the authoritarian, Soviet-like party structures of DPP in Denmark or SD in Sweden are rather frightening and says a whole lot about those parties, policy and legislation shouldn't be created around a single organisation.

It's not my impression that SD is as top-down as DPP... yet.

But honestly while we may like to see the party structure of DPP as a sign inborn authorianism in the party, I think it's reaching. Instead it exist for both historical and practical reasons. DPP was founded after a chaotic annual congress for the Progress Party worse than anything I remember in my lifetime. Pia Kjærsgaard who was leader of the Progress Party and her fraction of the party decided to leave the party, the other parliamental fraction left the party some years later, but didn't set up a new party. It tell you something how bad the Progress Party were, when the two warring MP fractions both leave the party. DPP leadership never wanted to see the same thing again, so they set up the party structure to avoid the old Progress Party members entering the party and creating the same chaos in DPP.

But there's also another group DPP want to avoid, when you're right wing anti-immigration party, you really want to avoid the Nazis and want to be able to throw them out again, if they enter anyway.
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