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  The Great Nordic Thread
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Question: Will Iceland and Norway ever join the EU?
#1Iceland, but not Norway  
#2Norway, but not Iceland  
#3Both  
#4None of them  
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Total Voters: 153

Author Topic: The Great Nordic Thread  (Read 153158 times)
politicus
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« Reply #500 on: April 08, 2015, 10:26:16 am »

Well, this would be partly neutralized if the Liberals end up outside of parliament too.

Could we see some consolidation behind the Greens as the new mainstream left wing party?
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« Reply #501 on: April 08, 2015, 03:09:22 pm »

Maybe, though it's of course impossible to tell - few would have predicted that the Greens could surpass SV in polls in the first place. I would imagine that they could have the potential of someday reaching the heights of, say, their Swedish sister party. If this were to happen though, I feel they need to have more prominent spokesmen (the Norwegians Greens are still a tiny organization, despite strong growth, and only one of their leading politicians is a somewhat well-known figure nationally).

Furthermore, they might also need to reinvent themselves as less of a "one-issue party", if they are to "replace" SV's position in  Norwegian politics. It should also be noted - though you probably know this - that the Greens have been very careful not to align themselves with either bloc, even saying that they could potentially support a Conservative government. A clearer alignment with the red-green bloc might increase their chances of gaining a prominent position on the left (doing so would of course diminish their chances of winning votes from the centre-right, but I would assume that the vast majority of their support have been "stolen" from the left-wing parties at any rate).
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« Reply #502 on: April 12, 2015, 06:02:50 pm »
« Edited: April 13, 2015, 05:47:56 am by Charlotte Hebdo »

On March 25 the Greenlandic parliament had its first hearing of a bill that will introduce (both civil and church) gay marriage and full gay adoption rights using the Danish rules (their registered partnership act is identical to the old Danish one and technically the bill is an amendment to the registered partnership act).

Nobody seems to object to this and the long delay of gay marriage in Greenland has primarily been due to a long line of bureaucratic slip-ups (like a Greenlandic translation of a clause being delivered a couple of hours too late to parliament last spring)  and the fall of Aleqa Hammond + election campaign, which removed the matter from the parliamentary agenda.

There will be a second discussion and a vote on May 15 and the law will take effect on October 1, leaving the Faroe Islands as the last Nordic country without gay marriage. Since the left wing has been in the lead in Faroese polls for over two years and the present centre-right government looks doomed this may change as well after their parliamentary election in October.

Around 70% of the Faroese are in favour of gay marriage and all of their cente-left and Liberal parties parties, but the unionist/separatist cleavage and a tradition for majority governments means that Faroese governments almost always includes one of the 2-3 parties that are against it. All post-1996 governments have included the separatist and Conservative Peoples Party, except a seven month SD led government in 2008, which included the small Christian Democratic Centre Party.

This time it looks like a SD led coalition with the left nationalist Republic, so it looks like the pro-gay pieces will finally fit together. Former SD PM Joannes Eidesgaard has suggested a formal Red Alliance between the two parties, but current SD leader Aksel Johannesen has refused that, but he is still interested in a coalition deal. Hopefully they will add the Social Liberal Home Rule Part if they need a third partner instead of replicating their 2008 coalition with the Centre Party.

The fact that the current coalition is a classic centre-right coalition (between two opposites on the unionist-separatist scale) makes it more likely that it will be followed by a centre-left coalition. (Faroese politics looks almost normal at the moment Wink )
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politicus
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« Reply #503 on: April 13, 2015, 03:47:45 pm »
« Edited: April 13, 2015, 07:47:34 pm by Charlotte Hebdo »

Icelandic news site Stundin has outed PM Sigmundur Davíđ Gunnlaugsson's personal assistent Jóhannes Ţór Skúlason as the bass player in the punk band Vafasöm síđmótun (Questionable later development) whose members are masked when appearing in public and never named.
JTS confirms he is a member, but claims he hasn't played with them "for a long time".

It is a bit controversial because after Sigmundur Davíđ Gunnlaugsson got elected leader of the Progress Party and led it in a nationalist and populist direction the band won a punk contest with the song Fokk Ísland slamming the ignorant and bigoted peasants in PP - plus their greatest hit Sigmundur ironically praises SDG as "the God of Iceland" and "a haven and a savior for the nation".

In a caps-filled statement on their facebook the three other members of Vafasöm síđmótun write that they are now forced to kill Jóhannes Ţór Skúlason. They claim not to have known that he worked for "thefascistracistpussies" in the Progress Party and say that they are now looking for a new bass player. Only requirement: Not being Sigmundur Davíđ Gunnlaugsson's assistent!

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

http://grapevine.is/news/2015/04/12/pms-assistant-was-in-punk-band/

Jóhannes Ţór Skúlason is presumably out of a job.. Tongue

For Scandinavian posters: Their facebook statement includes the "word" Framsóknarskítadrullubarnaníđingaflokkstussuna! Cheesy
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« Reply #504 on: April 13, 2015, 04:34:38 pm »

General strike seems unavoidable in Iceland. The unions want the minimum wage raised to 300,000 Icelandic kronar (2,150 dolllars) a month. The current minimum wage is 201,317 raising to 214,000 (1,535 dollars) after four months employment and most manual labourers never get above 220-225,000.

Iceland has very high prices and wages for ordinary people have not been adjusted since before the crash - so it is a fair demand, but a big raise.

All labour unions within SGS – 50,000 workers – will hold work stoppages on April 30, May 6 and 7, and May 19 and 20. If that fails to persuade employers the general strike will begin on May 26.

http://grapevine.is/news/2015/04/12/general-strike-looking-more-likely/
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« Reply #505 on: April 15, 2015, 09:21:43 pm »
« Edited: April 15, 2015, 10:14:15 pm by Charlotte Hebdo »

Minister of Foregin Affairs Martin Lidegaard refuse to recognize the Armenian genocide:

He states that it should "be left to historians to answer the question of what actually happened, and whether the events of 1915 can rightly be described as genocide."

As if any serious independent historian is in doubt about that nowadays.

"Historical interpretation should not be the business of politics  and legislators, but left to the freedom of research and public debate"

So just rephrasing Turkish talking points. What a fycking tool!

It is one thing that great powers such as the US and UK don't recognize it, but no need for us to follow their lead.

Danish diplomats already called it a genocide in their reports back home in 1915 and Danish missionaries played a big part in helping the Armenian refugees afterwards, but Scandinavia does not have a good record on genocide recognition in the modern era. Only Sweden recognizes it.

World recognition map (Czech Repulic has done it since):


(light green is partial recognition. Which is a bit absurd: In the UK Wales, Scotland and NI has recognized it and Spain Catalonia and the Basque Country + Navarra and Baleares and so on.)
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politicus
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« Reply #506 on: April 15, 2015, 09:44:44 pm »

In related news the Turkish embassy is up in arms about a nine meter tall sculpture called  »The Draem« (Danish Remembrance Armenian Empathy Messenger) by Armenia-American  art studio Invivithat that the borough of Copenhagen has ordered to be placed on Kultorvet in central Copenhagen for ten days in May to commemorate the centenary of the genocide.
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politicus
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« Reply #507 on: April 16, 2015, 10:13:29 am »

Our Queens is turning 75 today. Happy birthday Daisy!



(This also means that it will be possible to call an election from now on. Major backlash from royalists against HTS if she had allowed the election to interfere with the celebrations)

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politicus
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« Reply #508 on: April 21, 2015, 02:40:42 pm »
« Edited: April 21, 2015, 02:45:52 pm by Charlotte Hebdo »

With a 97,5% majority (sounds impressive, but it was 40-1 among 1,443 members - Pirates are such slackers..) in a membership vote the Icelandic Pirate Party has decided to leave Pirate Parties International (PPI) saying it no longer works as a forum for  collaboration and do not represent their values.

The Australian and UK Pirate Pirates have also left PPI, and the Belgians have suspended their membership, so there is a story here. Do any Aussies or Brits know the background?

The Icelandic PP is still above 20% in polls and clearly the most successful PP at the moment.
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« Reply #509 on: April 22, 2015, 02:31:36 am »

Minister of Foregin Affairs Martin Lidegaard refuse to recognize the Armenian genocide:

He states that it should "be left to historians to answer the question of what actually happened, and whether the events of 1915 can rightly be described as genocide."

As if any serious independent historian is in doubt about that nowadays.

"Historical interpretation should not be the business of politics  and legislators, but left to the freedom of research and public debate"

So just rephrasing Turkish talking points. What a fycking tool!

It is one thing that great powers such as the US and UK don't recognize it, but no need for us to follow their lead.

Danish diplomats already called it a genocide in their reports back home in 1915 and Danish missionaries played a big part in helping the Armenian refugees afterwards, but Scandinavia does not have a good record on genocide recognition in the modern era. Only Sweden recognizes it.

World recognition map (Czech Repulic has done it since):


(light green is partial recognition. Which is a bit absurd: In the UK Wales, Scotland and NI has recognized it and Spain Catalonia and the Basque Country + Navarra and Baleares and so on.)

Add Austria to the list.

Today, all 6 parties in parliament will condemn the Armenian genocide and urge Turkey to recognize it too and face their history.

Quote
Gedenken wird der Nationalrat der Opfer des Genozids an den Armeniern im Osmanischen Reich vor 100 Jahren. Dazu haben die sechs Parlamentsfraktionen eine gemeinsame Erklärung aufgesetzt, in der das Massaker auch an zehntausenden Angehörigen anderer christlicher Bevölkerungsgruppen verurteilt und die Türkei aufgefordert wird, sich der Aufarbeitung ihrer Geschichte zu stellen.

http://derstandard.at/2000014640168/Nationalrat-debattiert-Finanzrahmen
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« Reply #510 on: April 22, 2015, 03:13:22 am »
« Edited: April 22, 2015, 03:19:21 am by Charlotte Hebdo »


Add Austria to the list.

Someone has already updated the map. Czech Republic and Austria are both on now.
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« Reply #511 on: April 22, 2015, 01:07:39 pm »

This is a bit long, but on the subject of how the Danish right wing (not just the far right, but conservatives in general) sees Sweden as a dystopia - or at least a country headed down a wrong path - I think this editorial by editor-in-chief Jřrn Mikkelsen from our most right wing broadsheet daily Jyllands-Posten (of cartoon crisis fame) describes Sweden is illustrative:

"The exception Sweden

The debate about an explosive attack on the courthouse in Malmö was a striking example of the Swedish state of emergency. It expressed outrage not over the nature of the crime, but rather of the fact that the courthouse is located in a place where it can pose a danger to its surroundings. Translated into Danish: When justice is attacked physically, it is better that the legal system gives way. We wouldn't want to harm people.

The latter is rhetorical. Shooting dramas and physical abuse have long been part of particularly the nightly hours in Malmö, Gothenburg, Stockholm and other major cities in Sweden. People are actually hurt, and meanwhile the institutional basis for the Swedish democracy is sliding. As the Swedish journalist and foreign correspondent Richard Swartz wrote in the newspaper Information recently, elementary journalistic principles are neglected when stories are about people with an immigrant background. Presto, the media transforms themselves into shepherds for the good cause and don the expected self-censorship so that no one can understand what the news is about.

Formally there are still freedom of speech and parliamentarism in Sweden. But the real situation is highly segregated. Either you are inside or out in Sweden. This is not just political correctness, but also parliamentary practice, since the normal political competition is inoperative for the next eight years thanks to the infamous 'December Agreement' concluded between the Riksdag parties minus the Sweden Democrats.

The shaming of this one party and its 800,000 voters, which the opinion polls show to be more and more, is fully conscious and deliberate, and comparison between today's fainthearted criticism of immigration from Islamic countries and Jew hatred in 1930s Nazi Germany is normal imagery on the other side of the Kattegat.

In Sweden the normal becomes extreme, and the exception the rule. While Latin America and other parts of the world are moving towards ever more political and economic freedom, the Swedes lose their freedom because they have made themselves and each other into slaves by a moralistic purity that obscures everything. The secular goodness ideology in media, politics, culture, industry and the Swedish education system over the past decades have been imposed with a speed and heaviness, so even the biggest skeptics have been surprised. There is an overwhelming systematic hubris that can lead the country into a longstanding crisis - not only economic. States can tolerate many beatings, and it would be premature to predict a collapse. But Sweden is moving step by step towards less control over the social, political and demographic order. Where it leads, no one can know for sure, but even now it can be seen that the asylum system is about to collapse under the growing burden of a de facto free immigration to Sweden. Just below the surface this raises concern among even Swedish Social Democrats, but the criticism is hushed up.

The outgoing Prime Minister, the Moderate Fredrik Reinfeldt, outlined the choice quite frankly shortly before the autumn elections to the Riksdag: Either we choose the welfare state as we have known it, or we choose to become an immigrant nation. Reinfeldt preferred the latter and lost to a red bloc that thinks they know that a generous welfare state must go hand in hand with the historically unique and rapid immigration to Sweden from the cultures and countries most alien to Sweden. The immigration issue part the waters throughout Western Europe. But nowhere is the answer so dogmatic and naive as in Sweden."

(my translation)

http://jyllands-posten.dk/debat/leder/ECE7600842/Undtagelsen-Sverige/

Just a few notes:

1. "Shooting dramas and physical abuse have long been part of particularly the nightly hours in Malmö, Gothenburg, Stockholm and other major cities in Sweden." - this isn't really true. At least not in Stockholm. The Swedish homicide rate is 0.7, slightly below Denmark's 0.8 according to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

2. Saying we have de facto free immigration is ludicrous. We turn away lots of immigrants. I grant that we have a generous policy but it's far from de facto free. The rest of that paragraph is weird. The state is giving up control but we're also losing freedom? I'm not sure what he's trying to say.

3. "The outgoing Prime Minister, the Moderate Fredrik Reinfeldt, outlined the choice quite frankly shortly before the autumn elections to the Riksdag: Either we choose the welfare state as we have known it, or we choose to become an immigrant nation." - This is just a blatant lie. As someone who follows Swedish politics closely this never happened.

So, well. E for effort maybe?
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« Reply #512 on: April 22, 2015, 04:08:24 pm »

Are you really surprised? That newspaper was supporting fascists and nazis during the 30's, too.
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politicus
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« Reply #513 on: April 22, 2015, 04:42:18 pm »

Are you really surprised? That newspaper was supporting fascists and Nazis during the 30's, too.

Which is a bit hyperbolic (at least the Nazi part) and rather irrelevant. You can find lots of conservative papers across the continent being somewhat sympathetic towards Mussolini and Hitler in the 30s. It says little of their modern incarnations (and doesn't normally mean they wanted democracy abolished in their own countries. Just that thy considered order a higher priority for backwards (Italy) or chaotic (Germany) countries than freedom. It is like when modern right wingers think a military coup in Brazil might sort out the economy and halt corruption. Italy was viewed like developing countries are today by 30s Scandinavian (and British/Dutch/Swiss etc.) Conservatives.

Anyway, trying to paint JP as far right would be missing the point.

@Gustaf: Trying to view this as a report and grading it as if it was a school paper is pointless. Rhetoric and imagery is what matters here. The gut feeling that Sweden is a lost case and "no longer a Nordic country".

The interesting thing (and the reason I posted this) is that Sweden has disappeared as an actual country for the Danish right wing and the counter jihad circles in Norway (stretching well into the Progress Party hardline wing). It exists as a symbol of what they don't want to be more than as an actual place.

On facts: Measuring the level of violence, threats and abuse by referring to the homicide rate is rather pointless. All homicides are reported whereas other forms of violence and abuse are very underreported. So the wrong yardstick to use.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #514 on: April 22, 2015, 05:01:33 pm »

Are you really surprised? That newspaper was supporting fascists and Nazis during the 30's, too.

Which is a bit hyperbolic (at least the Nazi part) and rather irrelevant. You can find lots of conservative papers across the continent being somewhat sympathetic towards Mussolini and Hitler in the 30s. It says little of their modern incarnations (and doesn't normally mean they wanted democracy abolished in their own countries. Just that thy considered order a higher priority for backwards (Italy) or chaotic (Germany) countries than freedom. It is like when modern right wingers think a military coup in Brazil might sort out the economy and halt corruption. Italy was viewed like developing countries are today by 30s Scandinavian (and British/Dutch/Swiss etc.) Conservatives.

Anyway, trying to paint JP as far right would be missing the point.

@Gustaf: Trying to view this as a report and grading it as if it was a school paper is pointless. Rhetoric and imagery is what matters here. The gut feeling that Sweden is a lost case and "no longer a Nordic country".

The interesting thing (and the reason I posted this) is that Sweden has disappeared as an actual country for the Danish right wing and the counter jihad circles in Norway (stretching well into the Progress Party hardline wing). It exists as a symbol of what they don't want to be more than as an actual place.

On facts: Measuring the level of violence, threats and abuse by referring to the homicide rate is rather pointless. All homicides are reported whereas other forms of violence and abuse are very underreported. So the wrong yardstick to use.

I'm not seriously grading it as a school paper. It was irony, but maybe that's something Danes tend not to get. Tongue

Since all homicides are reported that is exactly why it IS a great yardstick to use. :/
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politicus
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« Reply #515 on: April 22, 2015, 05:16:43 pm »
« Edited: April 23, 2015, 11:45:52 am by Charlotte Hebdo »

Here is another one from September written by psychiatrist and blogger Henrik Day Poulsen (more on the LA right wing than a conservative)  in the other mainstream centre-right daily Berlingske Tidende:

http://daypoulsen.blogs.berlingske.dk/2014/09/08/sverige-har-udmeldt-sig-fra-norden/

(a much poorer writer than Mikkelsen, no imagery here, but he cuts to the core)

"Sweden has opted out of  Scandinavia

Sweden has now renounced itself from Nordic cooperation. Berlingske Monday could tell that Sweden is planning to receive 340,000 mainly Syrian refugee over the next four years and it is expected that many of these will quickly obtain Swedish citizenship and thus a Swedish passport. This means that they are free to travel to Denmark and enjoy the privileges that Nordic citizens have had for many years; Also before Denmark joined the EEC in 1973.

Nordic co-operation draws on a community of language, culture and values. The Nordic Council is not particularly powerful, but a symbol of the longstanding community of the Nordic countries.

Sweden already has Scandinavia's largest number of Muslim immigrants. Many of these are poorly integrated and especially Southern Sweden is affected by major social problems that occasionally flares up. In Sweden it is publicly known that the media are characterized by self-censorship. Berlingske Sunday could enlighten me about a concept I did not (previously) know, namely filtering. This means that you can not mention a criminals ethnicity, since it can be interpreted as racism. In Denmark filtration according to the newspaper's information takes place in Politiken and Information, but in Sweden it is used in all media. Censorship is un-Nordic. So here Sweden is already far away from a traditional Nordic perception of free speech.

340,000 Muslims are just as much as the entire population of Aarhus. That's a lot. Also, so many that it would eventually change the Swedish culture. Sweden thus moves in a completely different direction than the rest of the region and thus away from the Nordic community. I'm not saying that a Sweden that looks like Beirut or Cairo, is bad, it's just different and in no way Nordic.

As a Dane I do not share common values with a Syrian woman in niqab who is Muslim and speaks very bad Swedish. She grew up with completely different values than I do and does not know Hans Christian Andersen, Strindberg, Nobel or Edvard Munch. She does not know the principles of the Scandinavian welfare model and as many immigrants, only want our money and not our heritage.

There is soon going to be an election in Sweden and all political parties except the extreme Sweden Democrats support that Sweden should receive 340,000 refugees.

If this decision is enforced, Denmark needs to look at whether we can continue to give special privileges to Swedish citizens. For with a Swedish passport one can live the same way in Denmark and Sweden.

Sweden has by itself opted out of the Nordic cooperation. I regret it because I like the Swedes, Stockholm and Abba. Strindberg I can still see at the Royal Theatre.

I wonder if they really are aware of what they are doing "hinsidan" (on the other side)?"
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Gustaf
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« Reply #516 on: April 22, 2015, 05:27:24 pm »

I'm aware that Danish discourse on immigration is pretty different. A lot of the Swedish debate tends to view Denmark as bizarre too.

It just doesn't seem very grounded in reality that's all.
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« Reply #517 on: May 04, 2015, 03:09:52 pm »

Meanwhile, in Iceland polling:

Pirates: 32%
Independence: 22%
Left-Green: 11%
Progressive: 11%
Social Democrats: 11%
Bright Future: 8%

http://kjarninn.is/2015/05/piratar-langstaerstir-samkvaemt-nyrri-konnun/

ummmm
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« Reply #518 on: May 06, 2015, 03:04:54 pm »

Meanwhile, in Iceland polling:

Pirates: 32%
Independence: 22%
Left-Green: 11%
Progressive: 11%
Social Democrats: 11%
Bright Future: 8%

http://kjarninn.is/2015/05/piratar-langstaerstir-samkvaemt-nyrri-konnun/

ummmm

What would you expect? Iceland was settled by Vikings, this is just back to basics..
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« Reply #519 on: June 04, 2015, 08:06:28 am »

Minister of Foregin Affairs Martin Lidegaard refuse to recognize the Armenian genocide:

He states that it should "be left to historians to answer the question of what actually happened, and whether the events of 1915 can rightly be described as genocide."

As if any serious independent historian is in doubt about that nowadays.

"Historical interpretation should not be the business of politics  and legislators, but left to the freedom of research and public debate"

So just rephrasing Turkish talking points. What a fycking tool!
Although probably not that relevant for the Nordic thread - you're not alone. Dutch PM Mark Rutte has made a statement extremely similar to Lidegaard's, thus seemingly backtracking the Netherlands' recognition of the Armenian genocide. Bizarre.
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« Reply #520 on: June 04, 2015, 09:10:42 pm »

A new study came last month (apparently it was never posted here) that indicates that Norway would benefit more by being in the European Union than remaining outside of it:

Is Brexit a good idea? Lessons from Norway

Published: 06 May 2015 09:56 GMT+02:00

Quote
Norway is often held aloft as an example that the UK could follow in discussions about a potential British exit from the EU (the so-called Brexit). The Norwegian experience with the EU is unique. It shows it is possible for a country to be economically associated to and, at the same time, politically separate from the EU.

One important, yet difficult, question is of course whether the “economic-only” type of membership is superior to an “economic-plus-political” one. Our recent research shows that being politically a member of the EU, as well as having an economic union, does generate significantly more economic benefits.

European integration has always explicitly been a political as well as an economic process. The choice of a customs union model instead of a free trade area, as enshrined in the Treaty of Rome, underscores the agreed direction of travel as one towards deep integration.

The substantial politically driven pay-offs from integration strongly challenges the idea that EU benefits are mostly related to economic integration. Our research shows that costs are not related to the politics of membership. Instead, they bring with them real economic benefits.
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« Reply #521 on: June 22, 2015, 12:47:38 am »
« Edited: June 22, 2015, 12:49:48 am by Charlotte Hebdo »

Third Icelandic poll with Pirates around a third... This time reliable MMR from June 16:

Left Greens 11.1%    
SDA 11.8%    
Pirates 34.5%
Bright Future   6.7%    
Progress Party 11.3%    
Independence 21.2%    
Others 3.5%

Pirates 2% above the two government parties combined... LOL And BF might get in trouble with the threshold soon if they continue to slide.

This is not a fluke anymore.


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« Reply #522 on: June 24, 2015, 11:00:36 pm »

Faroese PM Kaj Leo Johannesen (Union Party) deliberately misled the Lagting in a case regarding a tunnel between the two largest islands - according to a report by Ombudsman Hans Gammeltoft Hansen. No news of political consequences as the Lagting does not meet before July 29, but after a fairly bad Folketing election for Johannesen and with Lagting election on October 29 there seems to be growing pressure for him to step down. The current government has been behind in the polls for nearly a year now.

http://sermitsiaq.ag/undersoegelse-lagmanden-forsaetligt-vildledt-lagtinget
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« Reply #523 on: June 25, 2015, 05:01:31 pm »

Since no one mentioned it: The Greenlandic parliament unanimously decided to legalize gay marriage on May 27 by adopting the Danish rules. Gay marriage will be legal from October 1. Adds a bit of territory to the same sex marriage map..
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« Reply #524 on: June 25, 2015, 05:24:38 pm »

Former  NATO SG and Danish PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen hired as consulent for giant Boston Consulting Group (BCG) with defence ministries and arms producers are main areas. He is starting to look more and more like Tony Blair.
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