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  The Great Nordic Thread
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Question: Will Iceland and Norway ever join the EU?
#1Iceland, but not Norway  
#2Norway, but not Iceland  
#3Both  
#4None of them  
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Total Voters: 153

Author Topic: The Great Nordic Thread  (Read 152152 times)
politicus
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« Reply #550 on: July 30, 2015, 06:48:37 am »
« edited: July 30, 2015, 07:59:21 am by politicus »

Why is Denmark's "ritual slaughter" ban all over the international news? I thought this had been enacted more than a year ago? All news articles say that "Minister Dan Jorgensen" is commenting on it, but he's a social democrat, and (thus) not a minister anymore, right? So what's happening?

And what do the "borgerlige" parties think of this ban? Will it be repealed?

Links?

Anyway, what was banned in 2014 was ritual slaughter without prior stunning, which nobody actually practised in Denmark, so it was more a symbolic decision. All halal-slaughter had been done with prior stunning since 2004 and all kosher meat was imported.

SPP, SD, Radikale, Venstre and DPP supports the ban. So no chance of a repeal.

LA (big gov) and the Red-Greens (minority rights) were against it. Not sure about the Conservatives - they have previously been critical and considered such things government overreach, like LA. No idea about the Alternative.  

DPP is normally pro-Jewish, but animal welfare is a traditional promotion cause for them (+ stick it to the Muslims, but this affects Jews the most), so they supported it - and has campaigned on it earlier. Some of their most pro-Zionist people do not like it.

The average Dane is very pro-animal welfare, so pols generally support it - the Liberals are somewhat woolly about it if it affects their friends in the agricultural sector, but otherwise not.

EDIT: The Mosaic Congregation representing 90%+ of (religious) Danish Jews agreed in 1998 to the certification as kosher of meat from cattle that were stunned with non-penetrative captive bolt pistols. The Mosaic Congregation says that the ban therefore does not change anything. Apparently there is a small amount of meat slaughtered in this way - still most is imported.

There is also a small minority of orthodox Jews with their own little synagogue on Østerbro in Copenhagen, who do not recognize the 1998 compromise, but they already imported their kosher meat.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #551 on: July 30, 2015, 08:39:00 am »
« Edited: July 30, 2015, 08:41:16 am by DavidB. »

Why is Denmark's "ritual slaughter" ban all over the international news? I thought this had been enacted more than a year ago? All news articles say that "Minister Dan Jorgensen" is commenting on it, but he's a social democrat, and (thus) not a minister anymore, right? So what's happening?

And what do the "borgerlige" parties think of this ban? Will it be repealed?

Links?

Anyway, what was banned in 2014 was ritual slaughter without prior stunning, which nobody actually practised in Denmark, so it was more a symbolic decision. All halal-slaughter had been done with prior stunning since 2004 and all kosher meat was imported.

SPP, SD, Radikale, Venstre and DPP supports the ban. So no chance of a repeal.

LA (big gov) and the Red-Greens (minority rights) were against it. Not sure about the Conservatives - they have previously been critical and considered such things government overreach, like LA. No idea about the Alternative.  

DPP is normally pro-Jewish, but animal welfare is a traditional promotion cause for them (+ stick it to the Muslims, but this affects Jews the most), so they supported it - and has campaigned on it earlier. Some of their most pro-Zionist people do not like it.

The average Dane is very pro-animal welfare, so pols generally support it - the Liberals are somewhat woolly about it if it affects their friends in the agricultural sector, but otherwise not.

EDIT: The Mosaic Congregation representing 90%+ of (religious) Danish Jews agreed in 1998 to the certification as kosher of meat from cattle that were stunned with non-penetrative captive bolt pistols. The Mosaic Congregation says that the ban therefore does not change anything. Apparently there is a small amount of meat slaughtered in this way - still most is imported.

There is also a small minority of orthodox Jews with their own little synagogue on Østerbro in Copenhagen, who do not recognize the 1998 compromise, but they already imported their kosher meat.
http://time.com/3974498/denmark-ban-kosher-halal/ - which has now apparently been edited to state that this has been enacted in 2014 already.
http://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150727_01792927 - Flemish newspaper (doesn't say that it has been enacted in 2014)
http://time.com/3977242/what-denmark-gets-wrong-about-halal/ - this author actually does state that the ban has been enacted in 2014, but still, pretty random timing then. Lots of Dutch friends of mine shared these articles (especially the first two) on Facebook.

And I've seen it on more news websites - actually more often than in 2014. But good to know that nothing has really changed recently.

Many thanks for your detailed reply. I guess that's what happens when you don't have a Senate. In the Netherlands, many parties (PVV, VVD, D66, PvdA, GL, SP) supported an Animal Party proposal to outlaw all "ritual slaughter" in the lower house - but VVD, D66, and PvdA senators got cold feet and voted against the proposal because of religious rights. PVV supported it for the exact same reasons as DPP apparently has, so I'm not surprised.

I'm not an expert on shehita, but I find it interesting that this Danish ban supposedly "affects" Jews more than Muslims (though only theoretically, as nothing really changed in reality). Probably the reason why the SDs supported it - to be clear, I'm by no means implying that they are anti-Semitic, but they wouldn't like all Muslims to vote for the Red-Greens, right? In the Netherlands, the proposed "ritual slaughter" ban would have had much more of an impact on the Muslim communities (although it would obviously just lead to more import of halal meat), probably because of technical differences in what was actually being outlawed. The effect on the Muslim communities was of course the main reason that the PVV supported the proposal (+ general animal welfare concerns that are typical to populist parties) and the main reason that the PvdA eventually opposed it (they really can't afford Muslim voters to walk away from them). It cost the PVV a lot of goodwill in the orthodox/traditional Jewish community (most reform Jews + secular Jews hated them from the beginning), but that's electorally totally irrelevant of course.
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politicus
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« Reply #552 on: July 30, 2015, 09:26:41 am »
« Edited: July 30, 2015, 10:09:32 am by politicus »

A Senate was not going to affect anyhing. The government knew it was a symbolic decision - and to block any attempt to use methods without stunning in the future.

Danish pols do not care about "the Muslim vote" (there isn't really such a thing). Ethnic votes can help in a municipal election, but there are relatively few Muslims with citizenship and they do not seem to vote based on social/religious issues - they vote on bread and butter issues. Pro-welfare state (and of course non-DPP). I doubt the Red Greens can go any higher - ethnic minorities seems more to be moving slowly to the right as many of them they get more middle class.

Immigrants to DK has always voted SD. The Eastern European Jews did it, the Poles did it, the Turks do it. 

This has been a much bigger deal abroad than in Denmark and I doubt many Muslims will think about when they vote given that it doesn't affect their access to halal meat.
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ingemann
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« Reply #553 on: July 30, 2015, 10:06:27 am »

Just to back Politicus up with some numbers there's less than 300 000 Muslims in Denmark (the precise number are unknown, 270 000 are most used guess, bt it's not unlikely there's less than 250 000 thousands). The only number I could find for citizenship among Muslims was 81000+. In municipal election where all people living in Denmark can vote, only 37% in 2009 voted.

Denmark as a whole have 5,65 million people.

So yes the Muslim vote even if it voted united would barely matters in national elections.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #554 on: July 30, 2015, 10:12:51 am »

Just to back Politicus up with some numbers there's less than 300 000 Muslims in Denmark (the precise number are unknown, 270 000 are most used guess, bt it's not unlikely there's less than 250 000 thousands). The only number I could find for citizenship among Muslims was 81000+. In municipal election where all people living in Denmark can vote, only 37% in 2009 voted.

Denmark as a whole have 5,65 million people.

So yes the Muslim vote even if it voted united would barely matters in national elections.
I don't really understand that, to be honest. The Muslim population in Denmark accounts for 3% to 4% of the population. In Holland it's 5% to 6%, so in relative terms, it's not that much higher than in Denmark (in absolute terms, it is, of course). Muslim voters really matter to the PvdA (which used to get some 70-80% of the Turkish and Moroccan vote), even though turnout among Muslims is lower than among the general population.
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ingemann
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« Reply #555 on: July 30, 2015, 10:40:17 am »

Just to back Politicus up with some numbers there's less than 300 000 Muslims in Denmark (the precise number are unknown, 270 000 are most used guess, bt it's not unlikely there's less than 250 000 thousands). The only number I could find for citizenship among Muslims was 81000+. In municipal election where all people living in Denmark can vote, only 37% in 2009 voted.

Denmark as a whole have 5,65 million people.

So yes the Muslim vote even if it voted united would barely matters in national elections.
I don't really understand that, to be honest. The Muslim population in Denmark accounts for 3% to 4% of the population. In Holland it's 5% to 6%, so in relative terms, it's not that much higher than in Denmark (in absolute terms, it is, of course). Muslim voters really matter to the PvdA (which used to get some 70-80% of the Turkish and Moroccan vote), even though turnout among Muslims is lower than among the general population.

There's at best something like 50 000 Muslims who votes, turnout among Danish as a whole are between 80-90% or 3,5 million votes. DPP got 742 000 votes.

We also have that aspect that the Muslim population are split, Turk/Turkish Kurds are the biggest group with 70 000 people and from there they're split in several distinct group (Pakistanians, Arabs, Somalians, Bosniaks, Iranians etc.) and that's before we look at sectarian difference. Muslims in Denmark don't even have a common interest organisation, instead they have several who lack cordination.

It's also what make Muslim candidates to national election interesting, because they're not sectarian in nature. They need to reach Danish votes, and the few we have had who came across as sectarians was miserable failure.

The best example of a sectarian candidate was Asmaa Riyad Abdol-Hamid, a religious conservative Muslim Palestinian, who ran for the Red-Greens in 2007, it almost resulted in the Red-Green total collapse, in one polls they only got 1,6% of the vote, but they just barely survived with 2,2% (a loss of 40 000 votes or 1,6% of the vote).

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politicus
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« Reply #556 on: July 30, 2015, 11:44:13 am »

@David: There was a poll in 2009 showing massive Muslim support for Red Bloc and although that has likely been less prevalent in the last two elections - due to more Muslims entering the home owning middle class - there is no doubt they vote more massively for Red Bloc than most ethnic minorities, but they are a small and divided group (= not easy to target) and Danish pols are not used to playing ethno-politics + they run a very high risk of scaring more Danes than they attract Muslims if they try to cater to them (as the Red Greens found out with Asmaa).

SD also feels certain that if they lose a bit of Muslim votes they will go to other Red Bloc parties. It is a segment that is taken for granted by the left - if they even think about it.

2009 poll (which was weighed using ethnic background and branch of Islam, but not level of devoutness - so includes "cultural Muslims")

89,1 Red Bloc

Left wing  25,0% (unfortunately not specified in my source - Red Greens bigger than SPP)
SD 58,3%
Radikale: 5,8%

10,9% Blue Bloc:

Liberals 5,7%
DPP 4,1% (against the permissive society and wanting a tough approach to crime ...)
Cons 1,1%
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DavidB.
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« Reply #557 on: July 30, 2015, 01:50:53 pm »

Thanks for this analysis, ingemann and politicus! I overlooked the high turnout among ethnic Danes and the fact that "bloc politics" matters on this issue.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #558 on: July 31, 2015, 12:06:54 pm »

lol
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/07/31/left-wingers-put-ads-in-third-world-newspapers-begging-immigrants-to-keep-coming/
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politicus
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« Reply #559 on: July 31, 2015, 12:37:29 pm »

Marianne Rosenkvist is a member of SAP (Socialist Workers Party), the small Trotskyist sect that joined the Communists and Left Socialists to found the Red Green Alliance. They are an internal left wing opposition (or "Left Platform") to the pragmatic party leadership. So not necessarily something the Red Greens are behind as a party. Guess they have to pull stunts like this to stay relevant.
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politicus
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« Reply #560 on: August 04, 2015, 07:58:30 pm »
« Edited: August 05, 2015, 05:03:34 pm by politicus »

First poll after the summer holidays shows that the Pirates are still going strong in Iceland. It also has Bright Future just below the threshold leading to a one seat majority for Pirates + LG, which is interesting because while most observers expect the Pirates to implode before the next election, there is the tricky question who will become Prime Minister if the Pirates actually do poll 30%+.

The Pirates are an anti-politics party attracting people, who do not see themselves as politicians and don't want to govern. Of their three current MPs, two have said they don't want to seek reelection and party leader Birgitta Jonsdttor has repeatedly said she would not consider becoming PM under any circumstances. SDA is still controlled by their Blairite right wing, and they are unlikely to work well with the Pirates and all their direct democracy and transparency stuff. So unless the SDA left wing knife Arnason before the election (likely, but not a done deal) there is really only one Icelandic pol that could lead a government based on Pirate seats:

LG leader Katrin Jakobsdottir

She is a very capable politician and consistently polls at the top of pols Icelanders trust and like, but her popularity never really translates to her party, but with Pirate votes she would have a chance. An LG - Pirate majority sounds more realistic than an SDA led government based on Pirate votes. Still, the SDA left wing may topple Arnason before the election and if they can avoid his fellow Blairite Reykjavik Mayor Dagur B. Eggertsson becoming his successor, they may take over whatever is left of the party at that point. But that is a lot of ifs and maybes. As it is going right now SDA could actually just as well sink below the threshold. They are lucky that BF is crashing as well, which gives them some "free" centrist votes.

On a different note, this is actually the best PP poll since February, which may be a coincidence, but still worth noticing.


Opposition:

LG 10.2%
SDA 9.6%
Pirates 35.0%
BF 4.4%

Government:

PP 12.2%
IP  23.1%

Others 5.3%
(of those: Household Party 1,0, Right Greens 0,8)


Just for fun:

Pirates + LG 45,2
IP - PP - SDA 44,9

Minor parties 9,7

Blanks 0,2

NB: Overrepresentation of provincial constituencies could screw this up, but that is far from certain.  
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #561 on: August 06, 2015, 08:32:17 am »
« Edited: August 06, 2015, 09:42:53 am by Helsinkian »

In Finland, the Greens are fast catching up with the Social Democrats. In the April election SDP was at 16.5, now they're at 14.5; the Greens got 8.5 in the election, and now they're polling 12.7. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Greens' support surpass that of SDP during this parliamentary term.

Img


Edit: replaced the Finnish language picture with an English language picture.
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« Reply #562 on: August 06, 2015, 08:36:23 am »

Just saw this one on the electograph blog, and since I hadn't followed this thread or even this board since last October (I tend to only lurk International elections now) I had no clue the Pirates were polling this fukcing high ! Iceland never ceases to amaze. Do you think there is a remote possibility that Iceland are in fact 300,000 comedians just fooling with us all ?
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« Reply #563 on: August 06, 2015, 09:00:35 am »

The collapse of the Finnish left is quite unnerving.
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politicus
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« Reply #564 on: August 06, 2015, 09:54:37 am »
« Edited: August 09, 2015, 06:59:37 am by politicus »

Just saw this one on the electograph blog, and since I hadn't followed this thread or even this board since last October (I tend to only lurk International elections now) I had no clue the Pirates were polling this fukcing high ! Iceland never ceases to amaze. Do you think there is a remote possibility that Iceland are in fact 300,000 comedians just fooling with us all ?

Nah, but the left lost most of its legitimacy when it failed to deliver on the constitutional matter (and a just fishing quota system), when they were in government. So people voted PP in protest and got disappointed. Now they are looking for an alternative and since they distrust the traditional left the Pirates fill that vacuum.

The Pirates are doing well because they are seen as the only credible, straight talking pols, who are prepared to fight for direct democracy, public ownership of natural resources (= no more speculation in privately owned fishing quotas, which was what started the pre-crash casino economy) and because the remaining opposition is in a sorry state.

SDA still has a self image as the big, all encompassing centre-left party, but is seen as a spent force and torn apart by internal fighting between Blairites and leftists. Left Greens got Katrin Jakobsdottir, but not much else. They are, as always, torn between Reds and Greens.

Bright Future is now completely dominated by egomanic Guðmundur Steingrímsson (having both a dad and granddad who were PMs tend to make you feel entitled to power) and disavowed by both Jon Gnarr and co-founder/former co-chairman (and former Best Party policy developer) Heiða Kristín Helgadóttir, who has left the party.

There has been some talk about creating a new united progressive party around Jakobsdottir, but the trouble is the inflated self image of SDA, the EU-question (the Pirates are officially neutral on that, only demanding a referendum, which may be an option - but many SDA and LGs feel strongly about this), and the LG left wing, which would see such a party as selling out. Generally whenever the Icelandic left tries to unite they end up more divided.

There is a growing pressure within SDA to call an extraordinary congress to get rid of Arnason. A lot will depend on who replaces him - and whether the party breaks apart. With the EU-membership issue basically dead (the widespread call for a referendum is mostly a principled direct democracy stance, not a pro-EU sentiment) it is hard to see what keeps Blairites, Scandi style SDs, feminists, left populists and old Peoples Alliance America-hating, public sector union-types in the same party, still fighting 15 old battles, while failing to attract anyone under 40 (and no working class support, but they never had that).

SDA was basically sick from the beginning. If you unite a SocDem party with three parties to its left and then tries to move it rightwards things will go wrong.

A bit of history:

SDA was founded in 1998 as an electoral alliance between the old SDs (called the People's Party); the People's Alliance - anti-American/Keflavik left wingers founded in 1956 by trade union congress chairman (and former SD leader) Hannibal Valdimirsson and therefore with most of the leftists working class support; National Awakening, a left populist fan club for Joanna Sigurdurdottir created when she lost the SD leadership battle in 1994 and filled with academics dreaming of reconnecting with the working class + the feminist Women's List. In 2000 half the Women's List and the trade union militants from the Peoples Alliance broke away and founded LG (an unlikely alliance which has fycked up that party ever since). The former SDs were in control and decided to go New Labour/Third Way, while the remaining feminists and left wingers went into internal opposition determined to take over the party - and being pro-EU preferring to stay away form Eurosceptic LG. In 2009 Joanna Sigurdurdottir is called back from semi-obscurity and takes over. She is then sabotaged by the disgruntled Blairites, who prevents the government from doing much instead pressuring her to make EU-membership the main goal of the government, despite coalition partner LG being against this. As a consequence the government gets thrashed in 2013, Iceland gets a centre-right government and the right wing takes over SDA. SDA is still split into factions originating in the original parties:

Blairites, right wing of the old SD.

Scandi-SDs/centrists, left wing of old SD + young people trying (unsuccessfully) to bridge the old battle lines.

Old People's  Party/old Women's List - academic left wing. Apart from EU indistinguishable from the Green wing of LG.

Left Populists - mostly old National Awakening, still dreaming of reconquering the working class and becoming the big national party.

The two last groups have an OK working relationship, but otherwise the ideological differences within the party are bigger than between the LG right wing and left wing SDA (which apart from EU is mostly the same).

The entire traditional left wing is seen as a spent force by many young Icelanders (and plenty of olds as well) because they are stuck in old battles and because they failed to deliver on the constitution, that was approved by a referendum in 2012. After the crash Icelanders really wanted an element of direct democracy, peoples initiative, a fair allocation of seats etc. to make sure it never happened again. That ordinary people could stop the political and corporate elite if they ever ran amok again. It is crucial in trying to understand Iceland to realize how strong this sentiment was (and is) and how much the left wing disappointed people.
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Hydera
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« Reply #565 on: August 06, 2015, 10:22:00 am »

The collapse of the Finnish left is quite unnerving.

The finnish left has never been anything above 45% combined for aa long time.

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politicus
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« Reply #566 on: August 06, 2015, 10:30:35 am »

The collapse of the Finnish left is quite unnerving.

The finnish left has never been anything above 45% combined for aa long time.


Strange comment for two reasons a) 45% would be high for the modern left wing almost anywhere in Europe and b) the Finnish left is nowhere near 45% at the moment.

Finnish Greens are Social Liberals with a twist, not water melon Greens, so this is quite low for the actual left.
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politicus
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« Reply #567 on: August 10, 2015, 08:24:21 am »
« Edited: August 10, 2015, 12:04:42 pm by politicus »

Former co-chairman (and Best Party policy developer) Heiða Kristín Helgadóttir now says she is ready to take over the leadership of Bright Future if chairman Guðmundur Steingrímsson  leaves "voluntarily", this increases the pressure on him quite a lot. She is also willing to take the seat in the Althing that is vacant while Bjørn Olafsson is on paternity leave if Steingrímsson resigns. Party congress on September 5.

She is a political scientist and not exactly a "vote magnet" (as evidenced by her not being an MP at the moment - finished second in Reykjavik South, despite being co-leader), but she was the main architect behind transforming the Best Party from a joke to a party capable of governing (and doing so quite successfully). I see her as more of a behind the scene operator, but they are so far out now, that she may be the only person with a shot at saving BF).

Her plan is to go back to a grass roots based organization, focus on what the party will do, not how it is positioned compared to others (especially SDA) and ditch the EU-talk. The obvious dilemma is that staying on a positive message and downplaying EU-membership as topic is easier with a disciplined, top-down organization.
Plus it is never easy to reinvigorate (even partially) "the magic" from something like the Best Party and the citizens movement.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #568 on: August 10, 2015, 08:33:52 am »

Oh Sweden, you never cease to amaze me.

An astonishing video of hippie activists vandalizing Stockholm's Östermalmstorg underground station because of a Sweden Democrats ad.

http://www.metro.se/metro-tv/har-river-demonstranter-ner-sds-tunnelbanereklam/EVHohd!32dTuZtUbTU6/
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DavidB.
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« Reply #569 on: August 10, 2015, 09:50:02 am »

Oh Sweden, you never cease to amaze me.

An astonishing video of hippie activists vandalizing Stockholm's Östermalmstorg underground station because of a Sweden Democrats ad.

http://www.metro.se/metro-tv/har-river-demonstranter-ner-sds-tunnelbanereklam/EVHohd!32dTuZtUbTU6/

There is a separate Sweden thread.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=167196.0
Sorry. Confusing, though. So this thread is only for Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Denmark?
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« Reply #570 on: August 10, 2015, 09:53:25 am »

And associated autonomous countries like Greenland.

Never stand behind politicus and the correct categorisation of megathreads Cheesy
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politicus
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« Reply #571 on: August 10, 2015, 10:44:18 am »
« Edited: August 10, 2015, 01:43:45 pm by politicus »

And associated autonomous countries like Greenland.

Never stand behind politicus and the correct categorisation of megathreads Cheesy

Well, there was a reason we divided them. The main thing was that back then we had a lot of active Swedish posters, but the second was that Sweden is - for better or worse - a country with a huge symbolic value; people use it to project personal likes and dislikes more than almost any other European country. Either as some sort of progressive paradise or as an example of the follies of political correctness and naive multiculturalism (lately mostly the latter). All this has little to do with the actual Sweden, but it does make it sensible to contain it in a Sweden thread. Sometimes I think we should have two Sweden threads. A "LOL Sweden"/"Sweden is perfect"-thread and a thread for discussion of real life politics and society in Sweden. But if we only had the last kind of posts it could of course easily be merged into the GNT.


So this thread is only for Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Denmark?

Yeah, the Nordic countries (incl. the three autonomous countries) minus Sweden. Originally it included Sweden as well, but at some point there was a lot of Swedish stuff and it dominated the thread, so Swedish Cheese and I decided to "break the Kalmar Union" and make an independent Sweden thread.

You can normally always see what a GD covers in the OP - and look up which GDs there are in the stickied General Discussion Threads-thread
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« Reply #572 on: August 10, 2015, 04:36:01 pm »

The county court in Reykjavik has sentenced two Landsbanki bosses to pay back 237,6 mio. Icelandic kronur + interest. Former Landsbanki CEO Sigurjón Þorvaldur Árnason and the head of the banks equity division Yngvi Örn Kristinsson were convicted, but another boss was acquitted and Arnason and Kristinsson were only convicted for one of five deals.

Landsbanki were not allowed to own more than 10% of its own shares (both directly and indirectly) but five times between 7 November 2007 and 25 July 2008 Landsbanki bought shares in the bank itself, the shipping company Eimskip and investment bank Straumur-Burðarás for 1,2 billion kronur in order to prop up their share value and keep the companies floating. The main owners of these companies were billionaire Björgólfur Thor Björgólfsson and his dad Björgólfur Guðmundsson, who also owned Landsbanki - partly through these companies. But the management were acquitted for those deals since the court found that is was not prove that they knew the ownership was above 10% at that time. But on 25 July 2008 Landsbanki bought 7 mio. of its own shares for 237,6 mio. kronur, which were all lost in the crash, and that is the sum the two bosses will now have to repay.

The administrator of Landsbanki had demanded the bosses should repay 1,2 billion kronur, but at least they are going to pay something (well, they will appeal and these things takes forever, but I am cautiously optimistic).
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politicus
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« Reply #573 on: August 10, 2015, 04:48:41 pm »
« Edited: August 10, 2015, 04:56:08 pm by politicus »

The first Utøya summer camp since the massacre was opened this week-end by AUF chairman Mani Hussaini. NATO SG Jens Stoltenberg,  Gro Harlem Brundtland and AP leader Jonas Gahr Støre will be among the speakers.

http://www.norwaypost.no/index.php/news/latest-news/30985

Hussaini is a Syrian born Arab-Norwegian with the stated intent of making Arbeiderpartiet "redder and greener", so he is the embodiment of everything Breivik hates.
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Swedish Austerity Cheese
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« Reply #574 on: August 10, 2015, 04:54:28 pm »

The first Utøya summer camp since the massacre was opened this week-end by AUF chairman Mani Hussain. NATO SG Jens Stoltenberg,  Gro Harlem Brundtland and AP leader Jonas Gahr Støre will be among the speakers.

http://www.norwaypost.no/index.php/news/latest-news/30985

Democracy prevails. Smiley
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