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  The Great Nordic Thread
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Question: Will Iceland and Norway ever join the EU?
#1Iceland, but not Norway  
#2Norway, but not Iceland  
#3Both  
#4None of them  
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Total Voters: 153

Author Topic: The Great Nordic Thread  (Read 153896 times)
politicus
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« Reply #650 on: September 16, 2015, 08:32:29 pm »
« edited: September 17, 2015, 02:08:36 am by politicus »

DPP now does exactly as I had expected. Suggesting refugees should go to Greenland.

Deputy Chairman Søren Espersen thinks the abandoned naval base Grønnedal in Southern Greenland is just the perfect place to house refugees.

"We advocate that the state should take over the refugee centers. And it is quite obvious - instead of buying single-family houses, which local authorities are doing right now - to use a location which has rooms for 3-400 people and clinics and so on. There is everything that the refugees need"

"We want to find somewhere else than exactly here, if we can. Australia transfer - without comparison (yeah, right..) - their refugees to Papua New Guinea"

Espersen also says that Greenland has something special to offer the refugees.

"Peace and security may be the most important. I don't know what it's like to be a refugee, but to come up to the peace and security in Greenland, must surely be wonderful - instead of staying in the middle of a city."

Reporter: "It sounds like you think it is a true retreat?"

"It is. It is just the right place. I think anyone who has been there, think it is wonderful place where refugees can feel good until they go back to their home countries. It must be about the refugees having peace, tranquility and protection. And they can get that on Grønnedal."

According to Søren Espersen locating a refugee detention center in Greenland would be a big win for the country.

"There must be deliveries of goods to the camp, and it will then provide employment for the whole local community".

No news from the Greenlandic government yet, but DPP sure are predictable.

Besides that Grønnedal is located in a magnificent area, but hardly what your average Syrian migrant
is looking for.





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politicus
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« Reply #651 on: September 16, 2015, 10:11:03 pm »
« Edited: September 17, 2015, 04:01:06 am by politicus »

There are several other places in Southern Greenland that could be used (the North would be too rough). A couple of smaller abandoned US military installations (though they may be too polluted), lots of abandoned settlements (especially in the far south) and something like old cryolite mining town Ivittuut near Grønnedal:



Some of the buildings are a bit dilapidated, but other could work. The refugees might even repair them themselves.

So in principle not a bad idea, but obviously also a ploy to scare economic migrants away - and Greenlanders are always sensitive about being used as a "penal colony".
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« Reply #652 on: September 17, 2015, 12:11:40 pm »

Have Norway recommended the Svalbard Islands?
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« Reply #653 on: September 17, 2015, 12:12:24 pm »

The Danish Government to take 1000 refugees voluntarily

Just before meeting with Tusk, Vestager and Juncker in Brussels today, PM Lars Løkke Rasmussen announced that the government will suggest taking 1 000 refugees voluntarily of the 120 000 that is to be relocated in the EU. In addition to that, Denmark will spend 750 mio DKK (100 mio euro) extra to deal with the external aspects of the crisis. One third will go to help the refugees in Syria and its neighbouring countries, while two thirds will go to the establishment of hot spots and increase the protection at the EU's external border.

The plan is supported as it is by the Social Democrats and the Conservatives. The Social Liberals, the Alternative, the Red-Green Alliance and the SPP will support the plan as well, but they all wish for a higher number of refugees. So there's a clear majority in favour of the plan.
The Liberal Alliance is in favour of spending the money, but remain sceptical about accepting the 1 000 refugees.
The DPP is rejecting the plan because the government isn't following their advice of cancelling the integration programs and the municipality's duty to find accommodation, and instead keep them in centres until they can be sent home. As they say, they are refugees and should remain that, i.e. be sent home when the war is over, and they shouldn't be transformed into immigrants.

The movement in the latest poll is all within the margin of error, but the movement is that the Liberals continue bleeding supporters to the DPP, around 1.5% more. Not much movement between the blocs.
Meanwhile Defence Minister Carl Holst is walking from one scandal to the next. After weeks of discussions about the "sign-off fee" he received from his job as leader of the Region of Southern Denmark, it is now emerging that the region employed a person, which acted as his personal assistant and perhaps even helped him in his election campaign, which would be against the rules. After days of denying that the person was his personal assistant, he today admitted that. Now it will be investigated in a couple of weeks what exact role the assistant had.
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« Reply #654 on: September 17, 2015, 12:37:56 pm »

Have Norway recommended the Svalbard Islands?

Jan Mayen would be good location as well.
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politicus
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« Reply #655 on: September 17, 2015, 12:45:03 pm »
« Edited: September 17, 2015, 01:15:32 pm by politicus »

Have Norway recommended the Svalbard Islands?

Only some local politician from the Progress Party and he was widely condemned for it.

Southern Greenland has much milder climate than Svalbard. It is more comparable to coastal Finnmark if you want to compare to Norway and the Norwegians send refugees up there - I met some while I was in Alta in August (an Eritrean teenager, some Iraqis), they seemed to be doing fine. Only major problem was the high price level.

It is more the remoteness than the climate that might make it too harsh.


EDIT: The guy who suggested it was Christian Eikeland, PP group chairman in Vest-Agder county council in the SW. His Labour colleague Randi Øverland had an incredible naive comment:

"The idea of ​​sending so many refugees (10.000) to a small town, (in a) vulnerable society like Svalbard is incomprehensible. For me it seems as if some people only want refugees the furthest away possible"

Well spotted Randi..
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politicus
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« Reply #656 on: September 17, 2015, 01:10:53 pm »
« Edited: September 17, 2015, 01:27:22 pm by politicus »

@Diouf:

1) Wonder how this would have played out with DPP in government? Would they just have been forced to resign or would LLR have had to cave in?

2) With no government takeover of asylum centers/no stop to integration programs and no border control DPP is screwed. They would have needed at least one of those things. Will be interesting to see what they do next.

3) Too bad about Holst. He seemed like the best the Libs had, but apparently he is a little to greedy.
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« Reply #657 on: September 17, 2015, 02:20:51 pm »

@Diouf:

1) Wonder how this would have played out with DPP in government? Would they just have been forced to resign or would LLR have had to cave in?

2) With no government takeover of asylum centers/no stop to integration programs and no border control DPP is screwed. They would have needed at least one of those things. Will be interesting to see what they do next.

3) Too bad about Holst. He seemed like the best the Libs had, but apparently he is a little to greedy.

There must be quite the pressure on Løkke from other EU leaders, so accepting some refugees would probably have been hard to avoid for Løkke. I guess DPP could have made a Soini, and stayed a bit under the radar, but it would certainly have tested the well-renowned discipline in the party. Or perhaps the party would have allowed a few backbenchers to let out some steam, so they could keep a dual government-opposition position. Løkke would probably had been forced to give them border control in some way, especially after Germany decided to do the same. The non-integration plan Løkke could hardly accept.

Perhaps the DPP will be calmed somewhat if several polls start to show them clearly ahead of Venstre; then at least they will have gained that. They could still get something on border control perhaps in some way. Their demands for the Budget has probably not become smaller, while the ability for the government to give them something has become smaller as well.
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politicus
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« Reply #658 on: September 17, 2015, 02:29:16 pm »

The non-integration plan Løkke could hardly accept.

Why? It is a domestic version of the camps in the near areas Venstre has toyed with themselves. Too much pressure from DI?
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« Reply #659 on: September 17, 2015, 04:27:08 pm »

The non-integration plan Løkke could hardly accept.

Why? It is a domestic version of the camps in the near areas Venstre has toyed with themselves. Too much pressure from DI?

I just mainly thought about what seems to be the general unworkability of such a system. Thousands of people, which there are no guarantee you can ever send home, stuck for years in a system without help to learn the language or get into the labour market. The hope is of course that it would keep people away or make them leave, but that is by no means certain. You could imagine quite a lot of tensions as well, with bunches of refugees completely isolated culturally from the rest of the population. I think the international pressure against camps like that would be pretty big as well.
In the near areas, the refugees are in a similar culture plus of course they are far away from Denmark, so no culture clash and its way cheaper per person. Wouldn't attract the same international outcry either.
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« Reply #660 on: September 17, 2015, 04:42:56 pm »

Some background for the DPP/Liberal fight:

The dilemma of the Danish government is that DK will likely either be forced into the coming refugee quotas and thereby lose control of its own immigration policy, or will have to leave the Dublin Convention, which will likely make Denmark an "asylum magnet" because asylum seekers can not be sent back to other countries.

DK is not an actual member of the Dublin convention due to our "legal reservation", but associated by a so-called parallel agreement. According to this Parallel Agreement, Denmark must notify the Commission whether DK intends to implement the regulation change. If this is not done within a specified time limit, DKs participation in the Dublin and Eurodac regulations will been terminated,

If Denmark chooses not to join the quotas and is thus eliminated from the Dublin agreement, it will no longer be able to expel asylum seekers to other European countries where they have previously rejected thad heir applications rejected and this could make DK into a haven for human traffickers.

From a right wing POV there are two solutions to this:

1) Put armed police on ferry lines with orders to repel all refugees and shut down the border completely Orban style (this is pretty easy with the short Danish-German land border and could be supplemented with sea mines north of Sylt and in Flensborg Fiord if it was circumnavigated, but would piss off the Germans and Danish Industry/the agricultural lobby etc. (the Liberal base and sponsors) (+ all the additional international criticism, but the aforementioned is the important).

1a) Try a standard border closure and see if it works. Would still piss off the aforementioned, but less international criticism/pressure.

2) The (other) DPP proposal of making it undesirable to go to DK via 1) Threaten with Greenland 2) If that is not possible - government run refugee camps in DK with no possibility of integration.

The Liberals, however, can not accept any of this, but are still not willing to take a large inflow of (Muslim) refugees, so LLR is caught between a rock and a hard place and trying to suck up to Merkel to get a "voluntary" refugee quota without giving up the legal exception (which will come in handy in the future and has great symbolic importance) and preferably a reduced quota (starting out with a mere 1,000 is a bit optimistic).
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« Reply #661 on: September 17, 2015, 08:19:05 pm »

The dilemma of the Danish government is that DK will likely either be forced into the coming refugee quotas and thereby lose control of its own immigration policy, or will have to leave the Dublin Convention, which will likely make Denmark an "asylum magnet" because asylum seekers can not be sent back to other countries.
Given the fact that Dublin is already dead/not enforced anymore, do you think it is likely that Denmark will really become an "asylum magnet"?

Theoretically, migrants can currently as well get a fake passport, jump on a Greek plane and fly to Denmark - I know this because this literally happened to the Netherlands, and in practice, these people aren't being sent back. And even though Denmark is a rich country and a wonderful country to live in, it seems like it has a "bad rep" among migrants because of its relatively tough citizenship/immigration/integration laws. Even if Denmark leaves Dublin, I think it is more likely that migrants will opt for countries like Germany, Sweden, Austria, and the Netherlands. What's more, travelling through Schengen areas will soon be easier again. Governments won't hold on to these temporary border control measures forever. That will make it easier for migrants to go to other rich countries.
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politicus
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« Reply #662 on: September 18, 2015, 04:41:48 am »

The non-integration plan Løkke could hardly accept.

Why? It is a domestic version of the camps in the near areas Venstre has toyed with themselves. Too much pressure from DI?

I just mainly thought about what seems to be the general unworkability of such a system. Thousands of people, which there are no guarantee you can ever send home, stuck for years in a system without help to learn the language or get into the labour market. The hope is of course that it would keep people away or make them leave, but that is by no means certain. You could imagine quite a lot of tensions as well, with bunches of refugees completely isolated culturally from the rest of the population. I think the international pressure against camps like that would be pretty big as well.
In the near areas, the refugees are in a similar culture plus of course they are far away from Denmark, so no culture clash and its way cheaper per person. Wouldn't attract the same international outcry either.

Nah, you are right. I just thought he would temporarily accommodate DPP on this and then try to soften it later. That would seem to be the pragmatic response. I assumed your "no way he can" referred to moral objections and since most of the Liberals left liberalism behind on this issue long ago I thought that odd (there is Bertel Haarders notorious statement that "there are two areas were Liberalism doesn't work: child rearing and foreigner policy").
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politicus
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« Reply #663 on: September 18, 2015, 04:51:13 am »

The dilemma of the Danish government is that DK will likely either be forced into the coming refugee quotas and thereby lose control of its own immigration policy, or will have to leave the Dublin Convention, which will likely make Denmark an "asylum magnet" because asylum seekers can not be sent back to other countries.
Given the fact that Dublin is already dead/not enforced anymore, do you think it is likely that Denmark will really become an "asylum magnet"?

Theoretically, migrants can currently as well get a fake passport, jump on a Greek plane and fly to Denmark - I know this because this literally happened to the Netherlands, and in practice, these people aren't being sent back. And even though Denmark is a rich country and a wonderful country to live in, it seems like it has a "bad rep" among migrants because of its relatively tough citizenship/immigration/integration laws. Even if Denmark leaves Dublin, I think it is more likely that migrants will opt for countries like Germany, Sweden, Austria, and the Netherlands. What's more, traveling through Schengen areas will soon be easier again. Governments won't hold on to these temporary border control measures forever. That will make it easier for migrants to go to other rich countries.

The experts and top civil servants in the relevant ministries think so, which is what matters.

Personally I would prefer Denmark to just leave Dublin, reestablish adequate border control and deal with it ourselves. I find this shoveling refugees and migrants back and forth undignified.
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« Reply #664 on: September 19, 2015, 11:15:02 am »
« Edited: September 19, 2015, 12:46:22 pm by politicus »

Danish SD right wing leader Henrik Sass Larsen calls it "a tragedy", that "Blair's successful New Labour has now been taken over by a Syriza-like freak".

Party chairman Mette Frederiksen says that Corbyn is far away from the Scandinavian SD tradition the (Danish) party is anchored in and that Labour has a completely different tradition".

Apart from foreign policy (which obviously is a big deal) I am not sure that is actually true. Corbyn seems pretty close to a traditional Scandinavian SD line on most other issues - while Danish SD has moved away from that. The Labour Soft Left has always seemed pretty similar to (a big part of) the classical Scandinavian SD tradition to me. Former SD chairmen Anker Jørgensen and Svend Auken would have been Soft Left in Britain, Poul Nyrup in the more "soft" part of Trad Right and HTS in Progress. Not sure about Frederiksen. Soft Left moving to some "Brownite" position likely.
(ironically - but fairly classic for middle class leftists - HTS started as far left as teenager)

Fully expect Antonio to repost the "Danish SD should be euthanized" line here  - if he reads this thread.
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politicus
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« Reply #665 on: September 19, 2015, 04:14:37 pm »

SD and DPP both have party conferences in these days. SDs membership keeps sliding, despite a temporary upswing before the election. They are still more than twice as big as DPP and on the #2 spot behind the Liberals, but the difference is narrowing rapidly. DPP has gained 5000+ in two years. They might pass the 50% of SD mark next year.

SD membership
2015: 38.595
2014: 39.345
2013: 42.091
2012: 44.764
2011: 44.948

DPP membership:
2015 17 122
2013: 12 064
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« Reply #666 on: September 19, 2015, 04:22:24 pm »

Just ftr, we should probably avoid the acronym "SD" on this thread.
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politicus
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« Reply #667 on: September 19, 2015, 04:28:41 pm »

Just ftr, we should probably avoid the acronym "SD" on this thread.

Why? Sweden isn't included in the topic. I always use SD for Social Democrats anywhere in the world, and the context in Denmark is clear.

As a Dane I refuse to let Swedish norms and terminology influence my vocabulary in any way - so it is a no go. You gotta remember Sweden is our traditional archenemy since medieval times.
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« Reply #668 on: September 21, 2015, 03:50:57 am »

Reykjavik now backs down from the total boycott of Israeli goods, which is lifted at a special meeting tomorrow. Mayor Dagur B. Eggertsson (SDA) calls it "a hasty and ill prepared decision". The boycott is now reduced to cover only goods from the occupied territories and they will consult with Copenhagen on how to implement this before they go ahead. Of course the IP/PP opposition says no even to this.

Reactions have been quite sharp. In the US retail chains have removed Icelandic goods from the shelves, the Simon Wiesenthal Center has called the boycott racist and anti-Semitic and urged Jews not to travel to Iceland and the Icelandic government has condemned the boycott as both ill-conceived, legally dubious and not compatible with Iceland's foreign policy. The Foreign Minister has argued that as a capital Reykjavik has a special responsibility to follow the main line in Icelandic foreign policy.

Eggertsson says he expected reactions, but not so strong. "This seems to me to be much bigger reactions than when Iceland declared its support for Palestine's independence." Which is a bit naive, a total boycott of Israel is a much more radical step than merely recognizing a Palestinian state. Could damage Eggertsson's chances of becoming SDA leader next year, not the boycott itself, but not realizing it was a huge step and having thought it through + appearing wimpy.

IP says the mistake is so serious that Eggertsson should consider resigning. In a counter-proposal they want the City Council to state that "the boycott was ill-conceived and it has harmed Iceland and Icelandic interests". So really trying to exploit this to the limit.

The Left Green youth wing "deplore Eggertsson's lack of political courage", but otherwise it seems most agree it was a bad idea.

Among the Icelandic company that suffered a backlash on the US market were brewery Einstök and bottled water Icelandic Glacial. In the tourism industry there were "a number of cancellations" because of the decision. Israelis only represents 1% of foreign visitors in Iceland, so mainly Americans I would assume.
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« Reply #669 on: September 21, 2015, 04:04:36 am »

Just ftr, we should probably avoid the acronym "SD" on this thread.

You are my hero! ^^

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politicus
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« Reply #670 on: September 21, 2015, 06:14:05 am »

Just ftr, we should probably avoid the acronym "SD" on this thread.

You are my hero! ^^

He may be, but why should I change the acronym always used for the Danish Social Democrats because some upstart right wing populist party in Sweden uses it too? Especially in a thread, that doesn't cover Sweden. The Danish party is after all much older and still more important in their country.

Besides Sweden Democrats is an obvious pun on Social Democrats. Swedish media allowing them to be referred to as SD is the problem. They should have been SVD, which sounds less good and doesn't help them establish the positive connotation to social democracy. If anything the forum should stop using SD for the Sweden Democrats and switch to SVD.
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« Reply #671 on: September 21, 2015, 06:59:28 am »

the acronym always used for the Danish Social Democrats

Isn't their short form A? Tongue I've actually only seen them referred to as SD in international texts.


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Not much of a connotation as the Social Democrats have never been referred to by the acronym SD in Sweden. Actually, I can hardly think of any countries where Social Democratic parties acronyms are "SD" It's SDP in the UK, SPD in Germany, SPÖ in Austria, and so on. Even in the Nordic countries,  it's SDA in Iceland, SDP in Finland, S in Sweden, and AP... in Norway. Clearly the Danes are the odd birds out, and as noted above SD isn't even their official acronym. 

Giving the Sweden Democrats the acronym SVD, would also not fit with the established tradition of how acronyms for political parties in Sweden are formed. Three letter acronyms for parties are almost unheard of for any major party, except the very historically outdated SAP.

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You shouldn't, I just like to grind your gears. Tongue

Obviously there are other Danish parties that share acronyms with ideologically different parties, such as Venstre and Vänsterpartiet, and Liberal Alliance and Left Alliance in Finland, so I think we can cope with this one as well. Wink



 
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politicus
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« Reply #672 on: September 21, 2015, 07:23:11 am »

the acronym always used for the Danish Social Democrats

Isn't their short form A? Tongue I've actually only seen them referred to as SD in international texts.


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Not much of a connotation as the Social Democrats have never been referred to by the acronym SD in Sweden. Actually, I can hardly think of any countries where Social Democratic parties acronyms are "SD" It's SDP in the UK, SPD in Germany, SPÖ in Austria, and so on. Even in the Nordic countries,  it's SDA in Iceland, SDP in Finland, S in Sweden, and AP... in Norway. Clearly the Danes are the odd birds out, and as noted above SD isn't even their official acronym. 

Giving the Sweden Democrats the acronym SVD, would also not fit with the established tradition of how acronyms for political parties in Sweden are formed. Three letter acronyms for parties are almost unheard of for any major party, except the very historically outdated SAP.

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You shouldn't, I just like to grind your gears. Tongue

A is the letter on the election list, not the acronym. They are never referred to as A, once in a blue moon Liste A, but that is very old fashioned.

I know SD was never used for Socialdemokratiska Arbetarpartiet in Sweden, but SD gives associations to Social Democracy as a concept. The name Sverigedemokraterna was clearly constructed to give that association in a country where Social Democracy as an idea is popular. It wasn't just a random pick.

SD is not the acronym for most individual Social Democratic parties, but it is a logical and fairly widespread short hand for Social Democrats and Social Democracy in general.
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« Reply #673 on: September 21, 2015, 08:22:05 am »
« Edited: September 21, 2015, 09:26:09 am by politicus »

@Johan: Since I am not Swedish I have to take your word for it that the acronym SD doesn't give Social Democratic associations in Sweden, but when they chose the name Sverigedemokraterna back in 1988 that was a deliberate attempt to draw a parallel to Socialdemokraterna and an attempt to try to usurp the Folkhem legacy and focus on a (ethno-)national Folkhem for the Swedes with the positive associations to safety, comfort, national solidarity and community etc. that term gives (or at least gave back in 1988). After they started copycatting DPP the parallel is more directly to being the "True SocDems", claiming SAP has been taking over by aloof academics and multiculturalists with no connections to ordinary Swedes.
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« Reply #674 on: September 21, 2015, 08:41:43 am »

My opinion of Iceland has gone down drastically due to the boycott saga. Such morons. I'm flying to the US next month, hope I don't have a layover in that country because I don't want to visit it anymore.
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