The Great Nordic Thread

[DavidB.]

Okay, what I don't understand is the following. What kind of people vote for the Liberal Alliance? Why do these people not simply vote for the Radikale Venstre, or, when they are more suburban and richer, for Venstre?

In the Netherlands, the country that has a political landscape probably most similar to Denmark, progressive urban cosmopolitan highly educated people vote for D66. Of course, it would be more difficult for D66 if they would be in the government like Radikale Venstre, because now D66 is clearly to the right of the VVD-PvdA government on economic issues. But still there seems to be an electoral "vacuum" on the progressive right in Denmark that has been filled by I. Is Radikale Venstre too left-wing on economic issues? Is Venstre perceived as too centrist? I'd love to hear a reply from Danish people on this.

[DavidB.]

Okay, what I don't understand is the following. What kind of people vote for the Liberal Alliance? Why do these people not simply vote for the Radikale Venstre, or, when they are more suburban and richer, for Venstre?

In the Netherlands, the country that has a political landscape probably most similar to Denmark, progressive urban cosmopolitan highly educated people vote for D66. Of course, it would be more difficult for D66 if they would be in the government like Radikale Venstre, because now D66 is clearly to the right of the VVD-PvdA government on economic issues. But still there seems to be an electoral "vacuum" on the progressive right in Denmark that has been filled by I. Is Radikale Venstre too left-wing on economic issues? Is Venstre perceived as too centrist? I'd love to hear a reply from Danish people on this.

The Dutch and Danish political landscapes are not particularly similar - taking that as you point of departure would lead you astray.

The average Radikale voter is richer and better educated than an average Venstre voter. Venstre is especially in its core areas in Jutland a genuine peoples party with a social profile as broad as SD and lots of people with low education and average incomes. Being suburban would not make you more likely to vote Venstre than Radikale - being rural or from a small town would, but having a blue collar job would be an even stronger factor.

Liberal Alliance is the most economically right wing party in Denmark and attracts affluent private sector functionaries and libertarian students. It is significantly to the right of Radikale (and Venstre) on economics and far more libertarian on social issues than Venstre.

Hmmm. I think based on policy, VVD and Venstre are quite similar; our SP might be between your SF and the Red-Greens on the left-right scale; the social democrats obviously played a different role in the past in both countries but are still somewhat comparable; Radikale Venstre and D66 are - correct me if I'm wrong - alike; PVV and DF also share some similarities apart from DF's leadership obviously being smarter and less extreme, which makes them at least "toleration" material for coalitions - which is not going to happen anymore in Holland, obviously.

However, conservative voters in Denmark might actually be the type of people that vote VVD in Holland, while Venstre voters in Denmark might be more similar to Dutch CDA voters (except for the fact that these people don't vote for the CDA anymore nowadays). I think the political landscapes do have differences, but I really can't imagine a country with a political landscape as similar to Holland as Denmark.

But I think I've looked too much at policy and not enough at historical voting patterns, which are in Denmark indeed very different from those in Holland. I now understand that, with the (both ideological and electoral) decline of the Conservatives and its move to the center (while accepting the Danish People's Party's policies on immigration, unpopular by a cosmopolitan bourgeois elite), the Liberal Alliance isn't (and hasn't been) as much a threat for Venstre as for the Conservatives. Which makes sense. I now understand the gap that I fills. Thanks.

(And thanks for the maps, Sibboleth!)

[DavidB.]

The Dutch and Danish party systems have a lot of apparent similarities, but some of them are deceptive. One of the main differences is that Christian Democracy has been a fairly strong ideology in the Netherlands and totally marginal (+ ”foreign”) in Denmark. Catholicism (even when just a sizeable minority) influences political culture quite a bit – part of it indirectly by affecting the way Protestants act.


Centre-right/right wing

PVV = old Progress Party (although less anarchistic/crazy). Much more economically liberal than DPP and also less authoritarian
SGP = nothing comes even close
VVD = both Venstre and Conservatives (which are almost identical by now)
CDA = no parallel. Its Christian (and partly Catholic) roots seets it apart. The old Anti-Revolutionary Party would have been part of the Conservative coalition, but quite marginal. Most CDA voters would be in Venstre
CU = pretty good fit for our Christian Democrats
D66 = fits Radikale pretty well, but has anti-establishment roots, whereas Radikale is as establishment as you get. Seems to incorporate people to the left of Radikale


Centre-left/left wing:

PvdA = Social Democrats, but (even) more ideologically washed out than their Danish brethren
GL = right wing of SPP (”Green wing”)
SP = Red-Green Alliance + most of the SPP left wing. More traditional party organization than Red-Greens


Odd parties:

PvdD= Fokus (created by former DPP MP ”Animal  Christian” Hansen) – extremely small
50+ = no such party

No Dutch parallel to Liberal Alliance


I made a description of the Danish party system in the election thread on IE.

I agree with the larger part of your analysis. However, the PVV is not economically liberal at all anymore. They were in 2006, and probably still a bit in 2010, but now definitely not at all. In that sense, the PVV is at least now definitely comparable to DF. And less authoritarian? Wilders has said a lot of crazy things about Muslims/Moroccans that DF politicians wouldn't say. He would definitely not be welcome in DF's ECR group. Furthermore, Wilders decides everything in the PVV. There are only two party members: Wilders and the "Foundation for the Friends of the PVV" which is run by... Geert Wilders.

D66 has anti-establishment roots but is nowadays the party that is by many considered the ultimate "regent's party" (as opposed to the PVV).

[DavidB.]

the Liberal Alliance isn't (and hasn't been) as much a threat for Venstre as for the Conservatives. Which makes sense. I now understand the gap that I fills. Thanks.

This is reflected in the table of voter movements from the 2011 election, but perhaps the difference is not as big as expected. The extra voters from Venstre might be (the somewhat surprising) Liberal Alliance vote which can be seen in Western Jutland in the map. In that Venstre-dominated area, there was a lot of anger about the closure of the local hospital, and the new super hospital was placed further eastwards. While this was a regional decision, many expected the Liberal PM to intervene and change the decision. Liberal Alliance, along with a regional party, was quite vocal in opposition to the closure. In the latest voter movement poll, there was actually a swingback from the Liberal Alliance to Venstre, which can partly be because this issue is no longer salient as the decision is now irreversible.

The blue bars are men, the orange are for women. The numbers to the left show % of all voters. The one furthest to the right is new voters.

It should be remembered that the movements are from what the predecessor party the New Alliance achieved in 2007. One of their main selling points was opposition to DPP and their immigration policies. This was toned and watered down by the Liberal Alliance in 2011, and since completely reversed, which explains why some voters went back to the Radikale.

Thanks for this, Diouf, it's interesting!

[DavidB.]

Minister of Foregin Affairs Martin Lidegaard refuse to recognize the Armenian genocide:

He states that it should "be left to historians to answer the question of what actually happened, and whether the events of 1915 can rightly be described as genocide."

As if any serious independent historian is in doubt about that nowadays.

"Historical interpretation should not be the business of politics  and legislators, but left to the freedom of research and public debate"

So just rephrasing Turkish talking points. What a fycking tool!

Although probably not that relevant for the Nordic thread - you're not alone. Dutch PM Mark Rutte has made a statement extremely similar to Lidegaard's, thus seemingly backtracking the Netherlands' recognition of the Armenian genocide. Bizarre.

[DavidB.]

I read that the Sweden Democrats are organizing a Gay Pride parade in some of Stockholm's "ghettos", which I think is pretty funny... does this get a lot of media attention in Sweden?

[DavidB.]

I read that the Sweden Democrats are organizing a Gay Pride parade in some of Stockholm's "ghettos", which I think is pretty funny... does this get a lot of media attention in Sweden?

thats hilarious. id join in just for fun. perhaps right-populist parties should do this more often.

Getting stoned is not funny, and that is what happened to our (normal and legitimate) gay pride parade year after year when they passed through Nørrebro, which only has about a third Muslims. This parade is going through majority Muslim areas (70-75%) and is organized by Islamophobes. Violence is inevaitable.

Didn't know that this happened to the Danish parade. I'm not really surprised, but that is awful and appalling.

Hopefully, all of progressive Sweden will not immediately have the "OMG Sweden Democrats!1!!" Pavlov, but instead think about the issue that the Sweden Democrats want to address. The sad truth is that there is a contradiction between progressive values (like equality for LGBTs) and multiculturalism/mass immigration. At least, The Sweden Democrats are right about that type of hypocrisy.

[DavidB.]

In recent days in Finnish politics there has been a big controversy over the Facebook posts of the Finns Party MP Olli Immonen:




YLE: Finnish MP calls for fight against "nightmare of multiculturalism"
Politico: Finnish politician declares war on ‘multiculturalism’

Critics of him in the opposition parties have demanded that the Finns Party expel him, and among the Finns Party's government partners Prime Minister Sipilä and Finance Minister Stubb have also condemned his views.

There have been critics within the Finns Party as well, even though the party's official platform states that Finland should "renounce the idea that multiculturalism is necessary or desirable". These critics within the party have taken issue with Immonen's "warlike" rhetoric.

His English is pretty bad, but his statement is so ludicrous that it's funny. He should be a script writer for an action film.

On a more serious note, I find the whole idea of symbolically "renouncing multiculturalism" so useless. Merkel, Cameron, and Rutte all did it, but what does it even mean? Multiculturalism is not only an "ideology", but it is also reality (though perhaps less so in Finland than in most EU countries). By all means, push for policies that close the border to uneducated immigrants from third-world countries, but don't make ridiculous, bombastic statements without any meaning in reality. And don't alienate people who aren't going to leave anyway, at least not if it doesn't make sense to do so.

After a thorough two month linguistic and motivational analysis senior lecturer Klaus Kjøller in political communication and rhetoric  at the University of Copenhagen claims that he is now 100% certain that the leader of the right wing Breakfast Club Henrik Sass Larsen is the author of "The Secret Social Democrat", which revealed a number of internal feuds in the party.

The villain in the book is former Minister of Finance Bjarne Corydon and according to Kjøller Sass Larsen wrote the book to prevent his rival on the right wing Corydon from taking over after HTS expected loss. Instead preferring to strike a deal with Mette Frederiksen from the centre-left of the party to keep his control over the right wing.

Sass Larsen of course denies this.

Among Kjøller's more quirky facts is that Sass Larsens hometown Køge is the third most mentioned place name in the book with 22 hits (after Christiansborg and Copenhagen), while the second city of Denmark Århus is only mentioned 3 times.

The Secret Social Democrat sold 30,000+ copies and the author  earned 250,000 dollars, which is very high for a Danish political book.

tl;dr: Danish academics have too much time on their hands.

European SDs have become sh** at winning elections, but at least they're champions in their own league, which is called "backstabbing".

[DavidB.]

Why is Denmark's "ritual slaughter" ban all over the international news? I thought this had been enacted more than a year ago? All news articles say that "Minister Dan Jorgensen" is commenting on it, but he's a social democrat, and (thus) not a minister anymore, right? So what's happening?

And what do the "borgerlige" parties think of this ban? Will it be repealed?

[DavidB.]

Why is Denmark's "ritual slaughter" ban all over the international news? I thought this had been enacted more than a year ago? All news articles say that "Minister Dan Jorgensen" is commenting on it, but he's a social democrat, and (thus) not a minister anymore, right? So what's happening?

And what do the "borgerlige" parties think of this ban? Will it be repealed?

Links?

Anyway, what was banned in 2014 was ritual slaughter without prior stunning, which nobody actually practised in Denmark, so it was more a symbolic decision. All halal-slaughter had been done with prior stunning since 2004 and all kosher meat was imported.

SPP, SD, Radikale, Venstre and DPP supports the ban. So no chance of a repeal.

LA (big gov) and the Red-Greens (minority rights) were against it. Not sure about the Conservatives - they have previously been critical and considered such things government overreach, like LA. No idea about the Alternative.  

DPP is normally pro-Jewish, but animal welfare is a traditional promotion cause for them (+ stick it to the Muslims, but this affects Jews the most), so they supported it - and has campaigned on it earlier. Some of their most pro-Zionist people do not like it.

The average Dane is very pro-animal welfare, so pols generally support it - the Liberals are somewhat woolly about it if it affects their friends in the agricultural sector, but otherwise not.

EDIT: The Mosaic Congregation representing 90%+ of (religious) Danish Jews agreed in 1998 to the certification as kosher of meat from cattle that were stunned with non-penetrative captive bolt pistols. The Mosaic Congregation says that the ban therefore does not change anything. Apparently there is a small amount of meat slaughtered in this way - still most is imported.

There is also a small minority of orthodox Jews with their own little synagogue on Østerbro in Copenhagen, who do not recognize the 1998 compromise, but they already imported their kosher meat.

http://time.com/3974498/denmark-ban-kosher-halal/ - which has now apparently been edited to state that this has been enacted in 2014 already.
http://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150727_01792927 - Flemish newspaper (doesn't say that it has been enacted in 2014)
http://time.com/3977242/what-denmark-gets-wrong-about-halal/ - this author actually does state that the ban has been enacted in 2014, but still, pretty random timing then. Lots of Dutch friends of mine shared these articles (especially the first two) on Facebook.

And I've seen it on more news websites - actually more often than in 2014. But good to know that nothing has really changed recently.

Many thanks for your detailed reply. I guess that's what happens when you don't have a Senate. In the Netherlands, many parties (PVV, VVD, D66, PvdA, GL, SP) supported an Animal Party proposal to outlaw all "ritual slaughter" in the lower house - but VVD, D66, and PvdA senators got cold feet and voted against the proposal because of religious rights. PVV supported it for the exact same reasons as DPP apparently has, so I'm not surprised.

I'm not an expert on shehita, but I find it interesting that this Danish ban supposedly "affects" Jews more than Muslims (though only theoretically, as nothing really changed in reality). Probably the reason why the SDs supported it - to be clear, I'm by no means implying that they are anti-Semitic, but they wouldn't like all Muslims to vote for the Red-Greens, right? In the Netherlands, the proposed "ritual slaughter" ban would have had much more of an impact on the Muslim communities (although it would obviously just lead to more import of halal meat), probably because of technical differences in what was actually being outlawed. The effect on the Muslim communities was of course the main reason that the PVV supported the proposal (+ general animal welfare concerns that are typical to populist parties) and the main reason that the PvdA eventually opposed it (they really can't afford Muslim voters to walk away from them). It cost the PVV a lot of goodwill in the orthodox/traditional Jewish community (most reform Jews + secular Jews hated them from the beginning), but that's electorally totally irrelevant of course.

[DavidB.]

Just to back Politicus up with some numbers there's less than 300 000 Muslims in Denmark (the precise number are unknown, 270 000 are most used guess, bt it's not unlikely there's less than 250 000 thousands). The only number I could find for citizenship among Muslims was 81000+. In municipal election where all people living in Denmark can vote, only 37% in 2009 voted.

Denmark as a whole have 5,65 million people.

So yes the Muslim vote even if it voted united would barely matters in national elections.

I don't really understand that, to be honest. The Muslim population in Denmark accounts for 3% to 4% of the population. In Holland it's 5% to 6%, so in relative terms, it's not that much higher than in Denmark (in absolute terms, it is, of course). Muslim voters really matter to the PvdA (which used to get some 70-80% of the Turkish and Moroccan vote), even though turnout among Muslims is lower than among the general population.

[DavidB.]

Thanks for this analysis, ingemann and politicus! I overlooked the high turnout among ethnic Danes and the fact that "bloc politics" matters on this issue.

[DavidB.]

lol
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/07/31/left-wingers-put-ads-in-third-world-newspapers-begging-immigrants-to-keep-coming/

[DavidB.]

Oh Sweden, you never cease to amaze me.

An astonishing video of hippie activists vandalizing Stockholm's Östermalmstorg underground station because of a Sweden Democrats ad.

http://www.metro.se/metro-tv/har-river-demonstranter-ner-sds-tunnelbanereklam/EVHohd!32dTuZtUbTU6/

[DavidB.]

Oh Sweden, you never cease to amaze me.

An astonishing video of hippie activists vandalizing Stockholm's Östermalmstorg underground station because of a Sweden Democrats ad.

http://www.metro.se/metro-tv/har-river-demonstranter-ner-sds-tunnelbanereklam/EVHohd!32dTuZtUbTU6/

There is a separate Sweden thread.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=167196.0

Sorry. Confusing, though. So this thread is only for Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Denmark?

[DavidB.]

Not a very smart thing to say: Denmark's new Foreign Affairs minister, Kristian Jensen (V), stated that Denmark should at some point join the eurozone. However, the blue bloc parties aren't exactly enthusiastic about this. The Conservatives are skeptical, while Liberal Alliance and DPP immediately rejected the idea. According to the article, the majority would be against this, and I think a referendum would be needed to introduce the euro.

Denmark, please be smarter than us...

Do any of the Danish posters know if this is just something only Jensen wants, or that this is really part of Venstre's program? I thought V had shifted toward some more eurosceptical positions.

http://finans.dk/finans/politik/ECE7950405/Udenrigsministeren-st%C3%A5r-fast-Danmark-skal-med-i-euroen/?ctxref=ext

[DavidB.]

The Danish government has decided to try to deport Helle Thorninng-Schmidt to Geneva .. I mean promote her as SG of the UNHCR. Given how serious the global refugee crisis is, I am not sure that would be a good idea.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-04/denmark-former-premier-thorning-schmidt-vies-for-unhcr-top-job

I saw her as a plausible candidate to become Donald Tusk's successor in 2017. A social democrat from a country that hasn't been too polarizing during the crisis in Greece (only due to the fact that Denmark is not in the eurozone, of course), she might be seen as an acceptable candidate for both North and South, probably more than Mark Rutte, who has been even tougher on Greece than Merkel. This, however, seems like HTS wants to have a nice job out of the spotlights - at the same time, the job is much more serious than the average "lol UN" job.

Why do you think she wouldn't be fit for the job?

[DavidB.]

The Danish government has decided to try to deport Helle Thorninng-Schmidt to Geneva .. I mean promote her as SG of the UNHCR. Given how serious the global refugee crisis is, I am not sure that would be a good idea.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-04/denmark-former-premier-thorning-schmidt-vies-for-unhcr-top-job

I saw her as a plausible candidate to become Donald Tusk's successor in 2017. A social democrat from a country that hasn't been too polarizing during the crisis in Greece (only due to the fact that Denmark is not in the eurozone, of course), she might be seen as an acceptable candidate for both North and South, probably more than Mark Rutte, who has been even tougher on Greece than Merkel. This, however, seems like HTS wants to have a nice job out of the spotlights - at the same time, the job is much more serious than the average "lol UN" job.

Why do you think she wouldn't be fit for the job?

HTS was seen as too right wing and too much "Merkel's girl" in the EU context by many SDs in other countries - especially in Southern Europe - aka not a "real" SD, so they preferred using their sloth in the top leadership for Federica Mogherini (her being Italian was of course also crucial to Renzi).

Being Angela Merkel's favourite SD was somehow not a selling point for Hollande and Renzi.

I think she has been fairly inept as a leader. You really need someone with strong leadership and coalition building abilities to head the UNHCR in this situation.

Jeroen Dijsselbloem has exactly the same profile as HTS, as a Northern European pro-austerity/pro-Germany social democrat (in name only, some would say), and somehow it didn't hinder him to be elected and re-elected as eurogroup president. HTS' losing to Mogherini doesn't necessarily mean that she can't get another EU top job. Your point regarding her ineptness seems fair - a Dane is better qualified to judge her than I.

[DavidB.]

DPP demands three things to accept this:

1) Reintroduction of border control.

2) That refugees be housed in state run refugee centers until they can return.

3) More aid to refugee producing areas (that development aid be moved from Asia to Africa).

Is this going to happen?

[DavidB.]

Good. I'm getting tired of Morten Messerschmidt's "Grænsekontrol nu!!!!!!!!" Facebook posts popping up in my news feed ten times a day This will get Denmark new sh*t with the EU, but every guy on the street could have anticipated the demand for border controls in any coalition with DF anyway.

[DavidB.]

Interesting points

I suppose there will also be border control at the Øresund bridge, or is it only for the border crossings with Germany? Seems like Kjaersgaard is getting her way after all these years...

[DavidB.]

If they only announce that they will send Syrian refugees to Greenland they will probably not even need border control anymore Germany it is...

[DavidB.]

I understand that her comment regarding an Øresund barrier wasn't entirely seriously, even though the idea of border control at this crossing isn't that strange, I guess.

Holy hell @ Sahlin's statement. Our Queen Máxima, originally from Argentina, said something similar when she was still a princess. It wasn't appreciated. Nonetheless, there might be some truth in it, even though I thoroughly appreciate Kjaersgaard's attempt to refute her claim. However, in my opinion, the very lack of a distinct Dutch/Swedish/[insert Western European country]ish identity stems from the ongoing war against these countries' traditions that has, especially in Northern Europe, mainly been waged by... social democrats, which is why Sahlin should probably be more ashamed than Máxima. I don't think this would have been an issue 50 years ago.

[DavidB.]

Honestly, I find all this talk of "cultural identity" frivolous to offensive. What is Swedish culture? Swedish culture is probably 90% the same as culture in any other rich country, they watch the Avengers and eat McDonalds like everyone else.

Yes, before Americans spread their cultural contributions to Europe, of which McDonalds' haute cuisine and the Avengers are marvellous examples, we Europeans lived in a state of utter darkness and barbarism

None of that is ultimately that important though.  

Who are you to decide? If it weren't European cultures you were talking about, this would be deemed highly offensive. Let's be clear, I don't care so much, but I'd like you to be aware of that.

[DavidB.]

Well "culture" is all fluid and constantly changing. European culture is dynamic enough to survive in a changed form. This isn't like the Native Americans or Abroginals Australians, whose culture was obliterated along with them.

Oh, of course. You won't hear me saying things like that. But at the same time I think there is a rather large gap between the way Atlas Americans tend to see European societies and the way Atlas Europeans tend to see European societies. On the surface, sure, every cinema has popcorn, shows the Avengers and there will always be a Burger King or McDonald's close to the cinema. However, that's not really what culture and identity are about. Like Politicus said, most European countries do have their own cultural characteristics. The fact that many American posters don't see this, doesn't mean that these should be deemed irrelevant or (worse) objectionable.