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  The Great Nordic Thread (search mode)
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Poll
Question: Will Iceland and Norway ever join the EU?
#1Iceland, but not Norway  
#2Norway, but not Iceland  
#3Both  
#4None of them  
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Total Voters: 153

Author Topic: The Great Nordic Thread  (Read 157463 times)
politicus
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« on: March 19, 2012, 09:44:55 pm »
« edited: April 14, 2013, 03:20:12 pm by politicus »

For discussion of issues regarding the Nordic countries Norway, Finland, Denmark, Iceland, Greenland and the Faroe Islands.
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politicus
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2012, 08:34:24 pm »
« Edited: August 10, 2015, 07:18:45 pm by politicus »

I was thinking along the lines of having to adopt or follow certain laws or regulations. Some people could construe that as a cost.
And since they do go along with most decisions, wouldn't it be better to be on the inside where they can actually help shape the EU?

And theoretically I suppose if they really got fed up, who could stop them from leaving? Technically Greenland withdrew from the EC, after all (I understand the EC is different from the EU that it became, but I think when we are talking about a country leaving the EU that has yet to join we move far into the theoretical).

1. They also withdrew de facto. EU decisions don't apply to Greenland. All countries are free to leave as they are sovereign nations.

2. The question is: How much can small countries actually influence the EU?
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politicus
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 05:45:58 pm »

Swedish Minister of Defence Resigns

The Swedish Minister of Defence, Sten Tolgfors, resigned today following a government scandal which broke early in March where the Swedish DoD in secret helped Saudi Arabia build a weapons factory. Weapons produced in the factory has proved to have been sold to and used by oppressing regimes against protestors in their country.

Tolgfors has during the investigation of the affair been caught lying and conceiling information, causing several opposition politicians to call for him to resign.   

Any long term effect in voters perception of the government IYO? (bump on the road or serious business...)
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politicus
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 12:56:34 pm »
« Edited: April 07, 2012, 04:32:23 pm by politicus »

Truly encouraging news for their Danish comrades, who are on their lowest level since 1898 according to the latest polls Wink
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politicus
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 04:26:43 pm »
« Edited: April 07, 2012, 04:31:36 pm by politicus »

Truly encouraging news for their Danish comrades, who are on their lowest level since 1898 according to the latest polls.

Not sure why it'd be an encouraging sign. The Social Democrats in Sweden and the Danmark are at quite different places at the moment. S rise here is due to factors such as a government people are growing a bit tired off and them finally getting a good leader. In Denmark the Social Democrats are the government, and they still have Helle as their leader.

What does polls look like more exactly? Would an election result in a return of the VCO(I) government or would Helle's coalition manage to cling on?  
I was being ironic Smiley Both the SDs in DK and Sweden are doing very badly seen in a historical context.
Danish SDs were at 18,5 % in one poll where Venstre (Liberals) were stronger than all  3 government parties together. It is slightly better now, but not much. If an election were held now we would get a right wing government. Probably a single party Venstre government, since Conservatives are doing really badly and Venstre doesn't really need them. The Danish Peoples Party (O) was never in government - just supporters - so no VCO to return to.
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politicus
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 07:41:41 am »
« Edited: October 12, 2012, 08:25:09 am by politicus »

Bump

There has been some general discussion of Danish politics on the international elections board, which would be a more appropriate here, so I am bumping this one.

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politicus
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 06:29:39 am »
« Edited: October 13, 2012, 08:22:12 am by politicus »

The 52 year old MP from the Socialist Peoples Party Anette Vilhelmsen is elected chairman of the party with a 66 % majority over the leaderships candidate 29 year old Health Minister Astrid Krag. A clear victory for the left wing in the party.
The election of Vilhelmsen spells trouble for PM Helle Thorning-Schmidt and her pragmatic/neo liberal (take your pick) reform course.
The SPP is polling at 5,2% at the moment. The lowest result in 30 years... Room for improvement.
New SPP ministers to be appointed tomorrow. All 6 current ministers supported Krag and several of them will probably be axed by the new leader.
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politicus
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 10:47:45 am »
« Edited: October 16, 2012, 02:56:04 am by politicus »

The SPP realignment story continues.

27 year old wonderboy and architecht behind the partys "pragmatic" right wing turn Thor Møger Petersen is fired as Minister of Taxation and replaced with 62 year old former party chairman Holger K. Nielsen from the "traditionalist" left wing of the party.
Nicknamed "Møgungen" ("the brat") Thor Møger was hated among the middle aged rank and file members from which Vilhelmsen draws her support.

Former Communist party boss turned succesfull publisher and SPP right winger Ole Sohn is fired as Minister of Business and Growth (where he was quite popular with the business community) and replaced with new party chairman Anette Vilhelmsen.

After two days of marathon negotiations first with prime minister Helle Thorning-Schmidt and today with the leader of the dominant Social Liberals Margrethe Vestager it will be interesting to see if Vilhelmsen has managed to get any concessions from the two other "queens" in the government.

Fun fact. After the election of Vilhelmsen all four party leaders to the "left" are female and all four party leaders to the right are male. Boys against girls in the next election campaign.  
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politicus
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2012, 02:50:54 am »
« Edited: October 16, 2012, 02:58:36 am by politicus »

Well, maybe we understand different things with the word realignment... I certainly hope for SPPs sake that this is the beginning of at least a minor realignment.

Yeah the pundits got that one  wrong. But in defense of the "experts" it was very hard to predict the outcome with any accuracy because of the large increase in membership in 2007-2009 from 9.500 to 17.000 and lack of knowledge about how many members the party actually had left during the current crisis. The last publicised figure of 15.000 proved wrong and the party only had 12.000 members left. The fact that 40,6% of those chose not to vote at all in a leadership referendum is quite surprising. What is your take on this? Widespread apathy?

I wanted to bet on a Vilhelmsen victory myself based on my knowledge of the feelings among "old" (that is pre-2007) SPP members, but hesitated since I was unsure of how the new members would react.
I think the clear 2/3 victory surprised most SPP members as well.

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politicus
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2013, 03:46:26 pm »
« Edited: April 13, 2013, 07:43:03 am by politicus »

Ms. Marie Krarup DPP spokesperson on defence matters (and daughter of (in)famous Lutheran minister and former DPP politician Søren Krarup) got herself into trouble after ridiculing Maori ceremonies on her blog following an official visit to NZ by the Danish parliaments defence comitee.

http://pacific.scoop.co.nz/2013/04/danish-mp-apologises-over-calling-powhiri-grotesque-mocking-free-rider-nz-defence/

As representative of a party that goes on and on about how foreigners should respect indigenous Danish customs its a bit hypocritical of her.

She was also dangerously close to being outright racist - which the DPP tries very hard to avoid.

"Krarup detailed her experiences at the Devonport Naval Base as an example of a relinquishing trait of New Zealand:
 
“One could perhaps call it [the marae] cultural annihilation or grotesque multi-cultural worship.”
 
She characterised the naval officers as “beautiful, white-dressed and European looking”, and expressed bewilderment regarding why New Zealanders of European ancestry had to perform a non-European custom to their European guests:
 
“It is a mystery to me that the naval officers could endure both the ceremony and the surroundings.”

(yeah, it must have been hard enduring all those half naked savages...)

The full text in English:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10876319

(its actually not quite as bad as I thought, but still insensitive and rude)
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politicus
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2013, 03:07:24 pm »

What are the differences between the right wing and left wing of the SPP on foreign policy?
There arent any, really. All tough there are a small portion of euro-sceptics on the left wing.
 Its mostly on economic policy and "value issues"  - like immigration and law and order - that they differ. But the present SPP minister of foreign affairs, Villy Søvndal (who is on the right wing), doesnt really follow the party line, but executes the governments (mainly SDs) pro-American line.
But thats mostly because SPP is so marginalized in the government.
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politicus
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 05:36:49 am »
« Edited: April 15, 2013, 12:17:23 pm by politicus »

With less than 150 days to the next Storting election on the 9th of September Norwegian Labour prime minister Jens Stoltenbergs Red-Green Coalition hasn't had a majority in the polls for a year and Conservative leader Erna Solberg looks like the next prime minister in coalition with the right wing populist/softcore libertarian Progressive Party. PP can celebrate its 40th anniversary knowing that the party's leader Siv Jensen is likely going to be the new minister of finance.

Image Link
Erna Solberg - a woman of substance...

An average of Norwegian polls for April.
 
Labour 27,2 (49)
 
Conservatives 33,0 (56)
 
Progressive Party 16,8 (30)
 
Christian Peoples Party 5,4 (9)
 
Liberals 4,6 ( 8 )
 
Center Party 5,1 (9)
 
Socialist Left 4,4 (7)
 
Reds 1,4 (1)
 
Others 1,9 (0)

Red Green Coalition (Labour - Centre Party - Socialist Left) + Reds = 66
Centrist opposition Liberals - Christian Peoples Party = 17
"Dark Blue" opposition Conservatives + PP = 86

Image Link
Siv Jensen -  laughing at the leftists?
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politicus
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 04:10:50 pm »

Yes, a "big gal" with wholesome conservative views must be right up his alley.
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politicus
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2013, 11:39:07 am »
« Edited: April 17, 2013, 11:44:57 am by politicus »

What are the differences between the right wing and left wing of the SPP on foreign policy?
There aren't any, really. All tough there are a small portion of euro-sceptics on the left wing.
 Its mostly on economic policy and "value issues"  - like immigration and law and order - that they differ. But the present SPP minister of foreign affairs, Villy Søvndal (who is on the right wing), doesn't really follow the party line, but executes the governments (mainly SDs) pro-American line.
But that's mostly because SPP is so marginalized in the government.

Which side is more anti-immigration and pro-law and order? The right-wing?  That would be the obvious choice but you can never be too sure.
"Obvious answer is obvious" to quote California Tony.

The right wing in SPP has accepted the SD line on immigration (which is almost identical  to the old VK governments) apart from the "24 year rule", that forbids Danes and foreigners living in Denmark to bring a spouse to the country if they are under 24. They are still more concerned about refugees, though, wanting to give asylum to trafficked women and such.
The SPP right wing has been pretty tough on crime too for a leftist party. But they are still softies compared to DPP and the Liberals (Venstre). And also still more focused on fighting white collar crime and traffickers than the right wing.
Left wing is more "old school" leftist focusing on preventing crime through social programs and being enthusiastic about alternative sentencing etc. They are also more humanistic/principled in their refugee policy.

We have a poster, Jens, who is a member of the SPP maybe you should pm him if you are writing a paper or something, he could give you more accurate answers than I can.
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politicus
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2013, 01:22:21 pm »

What, are the "Reds" near of getting a MP in Norway? Aren't they like old-way dogmatic communists?

Are they getting votes from the most left-wing voters of Socialist Left?
They include a lot of old Maoists and small left socialist groups, but not the Communist Party of Norway (the formerly Soviet loyal commies). Socialist Left has been very pragmatic while in government, so there is room for a "pure" socialist alternative to their left. I am actually surprised they aren't doing better.
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politicus
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 05:07:55 pm »
« Edited: April 18, 2013, 05:35:44 pm by politicus »

Yes, its clearly a party that's unable to fill the space offered to it by a left socialist "big brother" forced to be pragmatic as a junior partner in a Labour/Centrist coalition. If you compare it to the similar Danish situation where Enhedslisten/the Red-Green Alliance has been highly successful in attracting disappointed left wingers from the SPP (and SD) the difference is striking.

As I understand it Rødt is more dogmatic than Enhedslisten. Any other reasons why they have failed?

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politicus
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2013, 05:33:22 pm »
« Edited: April 18, 2013, 05:38:20 pm by politicus »

So the "real" Communist party of Norway isn't any kind of player?
No, NKP got 697 votes (0,03%) at the Storting election in 2009.

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politicus
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2013, 04:16:30 am »


Is there a big reason for the DPP strength?
DPP, being the opportunist that they are, have tried to position themselves to the left of the government on economic issues and they are being rewarded for this. However, the DPP will still support a Venstre government and will likely support that governments economic policies almost regardless of what they are like. Economic issues are not their primary concern - immigration is.

I disagree. DPP will have an interest in acting as a moderator on a Liberal governments economic policies, since being seen as a champion of welfare is their main possibility for growth - they already have the anti-immigration and law & order crowd.
They also have more voters receiving public benefits than any other party, so they cant allow policies that cut too deep in public welfare.
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politicus
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2013, 10:33:52 am »

That confirms my impression of Rødt.

Welcome to the forum! Its good to see another Norwegian. We now have 2 Norwegians, 2-3 Finns and 5 Danes among our regular or semi-regular posters, so it should be possible to keep this thread going with regular updates.
 
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politicus
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2013, 07:01:49 pm »

That confirms my impression of Rødt.

Welcome to the forum! Its good to see another Norwegian. We now have 2 Norwegians, 2-3 Finns and 5 Danes among our regular or semi-regular posters, so it should be possible to keep this thread going with regular updates.
 

Thank you. As you probably know we have a general election coming up i Norway this fall, so there should be plenty to discuss.

Yeah, we already have a thread about the election under International elections.
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=168177.0
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politicus
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« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2013, 12:32:59 pm »
« Edited: April 22, 2013, 01:30:50 pm by politicus »

A poll from Rambøll has Danish SD at 15,6%. This is a new low and the lowest the party has been in 115 years! They got 14,2% back in 1898, if they go below that the next milestone is 11,3% from the 1895 election.Tongue

I thought 17-18% was their absolute floor, but this poll indicates it might be even lower.

With new cuts in unemployment benefits for the uninsured and student grants the party looks like they are going to commit suicide.

Red-Green Alliance 12,8%
SPP 4,3%
SD 15,6%
Social Liberals 9,1%

Christian Democrats 0,9%

Liberals 33,5%
Conservatives 4,2%
DPP 14,7%
Liberal Alliance 4,9%

The governments pressure on the Teachers Union during their present conflict with the municipalities has led to plans among union representatives of creating a party for SD leaning public employees, since this is a core constituency for SD its potentially quite serious for them.

At present only 4% of Danish teachers want to vote SD, down from 35% at the 2011 election.
 
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politicus
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« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2013, 05:43:49 pm »
« Edited: April 25, 2013, 06:07:42 pm by politicus »

The poll I showed was actually not the worst for Danish SD. YouGov 21-4 got them at 14,4%, so thats pretty close to the 14,2% from the 1898 election. DPP is quite a bit larger in this one.


SD 14.4%

Social Liberals 7.7%
 
Conservatives 4.0%

SPP 3.7%

Liberal Alliance 5.2%
 
Christian Democrats 0.6%
 
DPP 18.1%

Liberals 33.8%

Red-Green Alliance 12.4%


This recent one is better for SD, but SPP is approching the 2% threshold. DPP almost equal with
Its after they legislated the working conditions of the teachers, forcing the Teachers Union to accept 95% of the municipalities demands.  Apparantly SD got rewarded for this, while SPP is getting killed. Former chairman of their youth organization Gry Møger Petersen just joined SD, she is the last in a long line of ambitious young SPPers running for shelter in SD.

SD 17,8 pct.

Social Liberals 7,5 pct.

Conservatives 4,4 pct.

SPP 2,8 pct.

Liberal Alliance 5,2 pct.

Christian Democrats 0,4 pct.

DPP 17,5 pct.

Liberals 31,3 pct.

Red-Green Alliance 13,2 pct.
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politicus
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2013, 03:06:21 pm »

The Danish SD has included the same groups as Arbeiderpartiet, followed the same development in branching out and been almost as strong, its present leadership has just decided to follow an austerity line and been focusing on long term structural reforms instead of trying to reduce unemployment here and now, and since they campaigned on a Keynesian fiscal policy and better education as the way out of the crisis many voters feel betrayed. They have also dropped symbolic policy positions, like a ban on prostitution, which some voters are mad about, but mostly the party is just too neo-liberal for its traditionel voters and it has been unable to attract new ones.

Also the DPP has been really good at attracting disgruntled SD working class voters by styling themselves as old school SDs. DPP doesnt have the same Libertarian element as PP in Norway, so its more attractive to workers. And the Red-Green Alliance is far more competent than Rødt (as we have discussed earlier).

Your other question is more complicated to answer, but I will get back to it.
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politicus
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2013, 03:40:57 pm »
« Edited: April 26, 2013, 05:49:16 pm by politicus »

It's interesting how different the Danish party system is from the Norwegian, given how similar our countries are. It seems like your Danske Venstre (The Liberals) are a combination of our main conservative party (Høyre), the agrarian party (Senterpartiet), the liberals (Venstre) and our Christian Democrats (Kristelig Folkeparti). What I don’t understand is your Conservative party (Konservativt Folkeparti). Where do they fit in? And why is your conservative party doing so poorly compared to their equivalents in Norway and Sweden?


Basically Norway and Denmarks started out having the same two party system with a conservative-urban Højre vs. a liberal-mainly rural Venstre, this system was then successfully challenged by our respective Social Democrats.

In both countries the original Venstre has split and given birth - directly or indirectly - to several parties.

In Denmark: Venstre and Radikale Venstre. In Norway: Venstre, Senterpartiet and Kristeligt Folkeparti.

A comparison of the Danish and Norwegian centre-right:

1. Høyre and Konservative Folkeparti are quite similar parties, the Danish Conservatives have just been defeated by Venstre in their struggle for the role as the mainstream centre-right party. As late as the 80s our Conservatives where bigger than Venstre, which looked like a doomed party because of urbanisation, but due to internal feuding among the Conservatives and a much more skillfull leadership in Venstre, which managed to "conquer the cities", Venstre became the undisputed mainstream centre-right party and the Conservatives are now a more or less useless and redundant party. Since DPP has the national conservative issues and Liberal Alliance the low tax agenda there is really nowhere they can get the necessary support to bounce back.

2. Kristendemokraterne exists in DK, but are not in parliament, simply because Denmark doesn't have the same bible belt as Norway and is generally a much less Christian country.

3. Radikale Venstre has the role Venstre has in Norway, but has been more successful lately due to good leadership.

4. Liberal Alliance is based on the more Libertarian wing in Radikale Venstre, but has been successful because the low tax agenda (that PP has in Norway) was left wide open when Venstre became more centrist during the 00s and the Conservatives where also perceived as too moderate on tax issues for some people and also not Libertarian enough for this segment.

5. Venstre is the old peasant party, equivalent to the Norwegian and Swedish center parties, but the difference is that Danish peasants are richer than Norwegian (and Swedish) peasants, so Venstre became more of a wealthy middle class party with a more right wing profile, this has allowed them to outmaneuver the Conservatives and become the main centre-right party.

EDIT: I should perhaps clarify by saying that Venstre was bigger than the Conservatives ever since the Conservatives Peoples Party was funded in 1915/16, apart from the 1980s, but at times the difference was rather small and the "natural" pattern would have been, that the urban based  Conservatives squeezed out rural Venstre as urbanization progressed.
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politicus
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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2013, 05:57:48 pm »
« Edited: April 26, 2013, 06:50:14 pm by politicus »

Does the Conservative Party still have a relevant role to play in Danish politics, or are they just a junior partner to Venstre? With the two parties being so simillar, aren't the Conservatives a bit 'redundant' nowadays?

I put the relevant part of my long post above in bold.

That said they would claim that compared to Venstre they are greener, more concerned about helping the marginalized (mental patients, disabled etc.) and more interested in securing quality in culture and education + more humanitarian on refugee issues and at least regarding the environment and culture there is some truth to this.

Basically having two mainstream centre-right parties has been pointless at least since the 60s, and Venstres leader Erik Eriksen suggested a merger in 1965 - and then had to resign as party chairman when it failed. After that it was just a matter of which party would come out on top. This has been settled at least since 2001.

One reason there are still two parties, is that they have very different party cultures. The Conservatives being an elite party reflecting bourgeois culture and with certain noblesse oblige tendencies, while Venstre is quite folksy despite streamlining and modern communication and mixes raw materialism with Grundtvig and the Folk High School movement. The Conservatives still have the third highest membership of any party, so I doubt they will die out soon, but the party looks doomed in the long run.
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