SENATE BILL: The New Atlasian Healthcare Act (Law'd)
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  SENATE BILL: The New Atlasian Healthcare Act (Law'd)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: The New Atlasian Healthcare Act (Law'd)  (Read 19335 times)
H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2012, 01:51:32 PM »

Chiropractic services
Really guys? There is no consensus whether that is pseudo(alternative) health care or not. Whig war on women goes without mention.

How did chiropractic services get dragged into this? And what does that have to do with women?
I'm not sure about the chiropractics thing, but the WWW is about you guys denying the women of Atlasia the right to make decisions about their own bodies.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2012, 05:01:42 PM »

Chiropractic services
Really guys? There is no consensus whether that is pseudo(alternative) health care or not. Whig war on women goes without mention.

How did chiropractic services get dragged into this? And what does that have to do with women?
I'm not sure about the chiropractics thing, but the WWW is about you guys denying the women of Atlasia the right to make decisions about their own bodies.

Assemblyman JCL has not advocated outlawing contraception. I do not know if he does or not, but he has not done so in this thread. The question at hand is not about whether a woman has the right to make such a decision about her body, but rather who will pay for it. Citing Griswold v. Connecticut has nothing to do with this bill. Griswold says that a state cannot outlaw contraceptives under the general right to privacy stemming from the Fourth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the US Constitution. Under the current health care law, contraceptive services are not explicitly listed as being provided. Senator Pingvin and Assemblyman JCL are not the ones who are trying to change something about our current statute.

When you attack a party or a person, please get your facts straight.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2012, 05:21:22 PM »

Whether or not something is currently law doesn't take away from the fact the Whig position here is inherently anti-woman.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2012, 05:26:03 PM »

Gah! Ninja'd! Well, here's what I was going to say:
[quote author=Senator Alfred F. Jones link=topic=151527.msg3266413#msg3266413 Under the current health care law, contraceptive services are not explicitly listed as being provided. Senator Pingvin and Assemblyman JCL are not the ones who are trying to change something about our current statute.
I don't believe that it matters what the current law is, the Whig Party (or at least some of its more prominent members) is opposing coverage of contraceptive services. There's really no other way to cut it in my book.

Yes, you can't take off what you never put on, but opposing the putting on and supporting the taking off are fundamentally the same.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2012, 08:06:00 PM »

If serious discussion doesn't resume by Friday, I am opening a vote here.
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shua
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« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2012, 08:39:12 PM »

That is what I would expect since most people still won't purchase insurance. The main funding for this comes from the payroll tax and general funds.

Also can you calculate how much this cost sharing will save the government?
Currently, the cost of the ANHA is nearly $1250 Billion, and will probably rise by at least $100 Billion as more people join the program if kept as is.  With the bill before the Senate,  I estimate the ANHA will be kept to $900-950 Billion for the next few years. So a savings of about $300 Billion now, but more down the road.
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Sbane
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« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2012, 12:08:04 AM »

Is that per year?
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LastVoter
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« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2012, 12:51:39 AM »

But really someone explain why Chiropractor services are included in the healthcare bill? We might as well include acupunture and herbal-remedies too then.
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shua
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« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2012, 10:52:40 AM »

Yes.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2012, 11:59:13 AM »

But really someone explain why Chiropractor services are included in the healthcare bill? We might as well include acupunture and herbal-remedies too then.

They were included in the original bill written Fritz three years ago and you were the first to ask that question.

I would suggest leaving them covered in the bill for treatment of lower back pain and herneated discs. Perhaps we could use an amendment to this stating subluxation, acupuncture, and herbal remedies are not included.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2012, 12:10:24 PM »

But really someone explain why Chiropractor services are included in the healthcare bill? We might as well include acupunture and herbal-remedies too then.

They were included in the original bill written Fritz three years ago and you were the first to ask that question.

I would suggest leaving them covered in the bill for treatment of lower back pain and herneated discs. Perhaps we could use an amendment to this stating subluxation, acupuncture, and herbal remedies are not included.

If we're excluding psuedoscience, then chiropractic services are out, too Tongue
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shua
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« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2012, 01:23:52 PM »

But really someone explain why Chiropractor services are included in the healthcare bill? We might as well include acupunture and herbal-remedies too then.

They were included in the original bill written Fritz three years ago and you were the first to ask that question.

I would suggest leaving them covered in the bill for treatment of lower back pain and herneated discs. Perhaps we could use an amendment to this stating subluxation, acupuncture, and herbal remedies are not included.
There is not a procedure called subluxation. It's a concept of physiological dysfunction. 
FWIW, I had delibitating back pain last year and found chiropractic to be immensely helpful.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2012, 05:42:54 PM »

If it's a medical service that helps people, I really don't see why it shouldn't be included.
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Sbane
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« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2012, 07:53:34 PM »

I think we need to look carefully at complementary and alternative medicine. Is there strong evidence that chiropractic services don't work? I would say the results are mixed as of now, but any evidence to the contrary will be appreciated. Speaking of herbal remedies, it really matters what we are talking about. Lots of herbal remedies do work....indeed many conventional medicines are just the purified active ingredients in the herbal products.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2012, 08:26:06 PM »

If it's a medical service that helps people, I really don't see why it shouldn't be included.

Of course it helps people.  There's just no evidence that it helps people over and above what essentially amounts to a placebo effect.  Wikipedia's information is actually quite thorough.  Evidence for its efficacy are spotty at best.  I don't have any problems with looking more at alternative methods in some sort of research-related bill, but we have to realize that chiropractic care is an alternative medicine, and we quite simply don't know enough about its efficacy to start handing it out left and right.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2012, 08:38:14 PM »

If it's a medical service that helps people, I really don't see why it shouldn't be included.

Of course it helps people.  There's just no evidence that it helps people over and above what essentially amounts to a placebo effect.  Wikipedia's information is actually quite thorough.  Evidence for its efficacy are spotty at best.  I don't have any problems with looking more at alternative methods in some sort of research-related bill, but we have to realize that chiropractic care is an alternative medicine, and we quite simply don't know enough about its efficacy to start handing it out left and right.

Even if it is a placebo effect, nonetheless the benefits outweigh the costs of funding this.  We should not use this bill as an opportunity to deny people effective medical care.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2012, 10:03:35 PM »

If it's a medical service that helps people, I really don't see why it shouldn't be included.

Of course it helps people.  There's just no evidence that it helps people over and above what essentially amounts to a placebo effect.  Wikipedia's information is actually quite thorough.  Evidence for its efficacy are spotty at best.  I don't have any problems with looking more at alternative methods in some sort of research-related bill, but we have to realize that chiropractic care is an alternative medicine, and we quite simply don't know enough about its efficacy to start handing it out left and right.

Even if it is a placebo effect, nonetheless the benefits outweigh the costs of funding this.  We should not use this bill as an opportunity to deny people effective medical care.

If you're fine with us funding something that's just the placebo effect, why not at least fund something that's cheaper?  There are plenty of cheap placebos out there Tongue
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2012, 10:27:43 PM »
« Edited: April 20, 2012, 10:10:42 AM by Senator Scott »

If it's a medical service that helps people, I really don't see why it shouldn't be included.

Of course it helps people.  There's just no evidence that it helps people over and above what essentially amounts to a placebo effect.  Wikipedia's information is actually quite thorough.  Evidence for its efficacy are spotty at best.  I don't have any problems with looking more at alternative methods in some sort of research-related bill, but we have to realize that chiropractic care is an alternative medicine, and we quite simply don't know enough about its efficacy to start handing it out left and right.

Even if it is a placebo effect, nonetheless the benefits outweigh the costs of funding this.  We should not use this bill as an opportunity to deny people effective medical care.

If you're fine with us funding something that's just the placebo effect, why not at least fund something that's cheaper?  There are plenty of cheap placebos out there Tongue

Well, if these are placebos that have the same exact benefits as chiropractic services, I will support the funding for them.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2012, 07:08:12 AM »

If it's a medical service that helps people, I really don't see why it shouldn't be included.

Of course it helps people.  There's just no evidence that it helps people over and above what essentially amounts to a placebo effect.  Wikipedia's information is actually quite thorough.  Evidence for its efficacy are spotty at best.  I don't have any problems with looking more at alternative methods in some sort of research-related bill, but we have to realize that chiropractic care is an alternative medicine, and we quite simply don't know enough about its efficacy to start handing it out left and right.

Even if it is a placebo effect, nonetheless the benefits outweigh the costs of funding this.  We should not use this bill as an opportunity to deny people effective medical care.

If you're fine with us funding something that's just the placebo effect, why not at least fund something that's cheaper?  There are plenty of cheap placebos out there Tongue

Well, if these are placebos that have the same exact benefits as chiropractor services, I will support the funding for them.

Seriously?  You just endorsed the prescription of sugar pills...
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Sbane
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« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2012, 05:29:47 PM »

Well, I certainly don't agree with Scott about supporting services which do not perform better than placebos. That being said, excluding some of the out there theories of why spinal manipulation works, SMT seems to perform similarly to other therapies used for lower back pain. And outside of lower back pain, the evidence for effectiveness of SMT is pretty weak. Since SMT could be considered for the treatment of lower back pain, I don't know if we should get rid of those services. Remember that we have been providing these services for years and we should have a good reason to get rid of it. You can introduce an amendment to strike that out of the bill. I will be abstaining.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2012, 04:28:51 PM »

Will an amendment be forthcoming with regards to removing Chiropractic surgery from the list of covered items?


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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2012, 04:39:38 PM »

I will just go ahead and offer it.

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2012, 04:40:22 PM »

Also, who wants to take this bill once MoPolitico gets liquidated?
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2012, 04:41:40 PM »

I'll volunteer.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2012, 04:51:14 PM »

I will just go ahead and offer it.

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Hooray!  I second this amendment, or happily support it, or whatever.  I realized that we should also add in speech-language pathology to the list, too, perhaps by "hearing services".  Do we want to cover cochlear implants?
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