How would you have treated confederate leaders? (user search)
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  How would you have treated confederate leaders? (search mode)
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Author Topic: How would you have treated confederate leaders?  (Read 29840 times)
dbpman
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« on: January 30, 2005, 08:15:26 PM »
« edited: January 30, 2005, 08:19:16 PM by dbpman »

you are also forgetting the 9th amendment that says that the rights listed in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are in no means complete. 

The right of Secession has been and always will be the right of the people to alter or abolish any form of government that does not work for them. 

To think that the states would willingly sign the Constitution and give up their right of secession... the right they just fought and died for...is very nieve.

This was a big bone that needed to be picked because of the Articles of Confederation that created a perpetual union.  The Constitutional Convention brought up that same issue during the writing of the Constitution.  The motion to create a line about a perpetual union in the Constitution was shot down.

In 1814, many Northern Federalist tried to secede from the union.  Many people including Madision was displeased about their notion but no one ever questioned their right to secede if they choose to

Even Tocqueville in his book Democracy in America discribed the union  of states as a voluntary agreement of States and that anyone wishes to leave the union is free to do so.

West pointers are taught in school the right of secession.  This is a government regulated school teaching future officers that its the right of the people to secede.

I dont understand how anyone can sit here and believe that our founding fathers would give up the right to alter or abolish our own government if in the future it no longer works...It goes against everything they sacrificed against the British  and contradicts everything they have written

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dbpman
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2005, 11:04:12 PM »

The "Right" to secede from the Union would belong to the States not to the people since it is the States that are members of the Union not individuals. This is of course presumes that it exists, which it doesn't. Also consider that the Ninth Amendment in no way affected the original construction of the Constituion, so my interpretation of the Supremacy Clause continues to stand.
right.. but its the people who created the state governments so its the people speaking through their elected officials that declare their rights to secession... as they did in 1860 in SC... special voting for secession

Well as you said when the original constitution was written the Supremacy clause might trump any right of secession.  So as the Preamble to the Bill of Rights says
"The conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added." 

So to make sure that there was no misconception the 9th and 10th amendments were bookends of what the federal government could and could not regulate on.

since like I said before the 9th states that the federal government can not assume power that is not explicitly written and since secession is not explictly written, it is left to the states or to the people as article 10 states.

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and no one expected the federal government to have a federal army big enough to stop the state from leaving either.. that was the biggest misconception of both Hamilton and Madison.

The supremacy clause can be used as an argument against secession only if the Constitution requires a state to remain part of the union. The federal government can not assume powers it was not given.  So if the Constitution doesnt state explicitly that the states must be in a perpetual union it can not apply otherwise.  Nor does it apply to a state that has left the Union. Obviously.

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